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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"The Retail Golfer"
« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2007, 10:34:55 PM »
Again, I understand why some feel there is a negative connotation.  Years ago, when Jim Colbert was the "muni king" he always said that you have to understand the "customer" which struck me as odd then.  

In that sense, I think retail golfer sounds better than customer - at least Mike K is trying a term that keeps the word golfer in it.

Tee times are a perishible commodity and golfers are truly customers.  Any business has to recognize that and usually need a term to describe what they are selling and those who they sell it to.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"The Retail Golfer"
« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2007, 10:55:33 PM »
Bill Gayne --

Do you really think that's what Mike Keiser is all about?

Dan
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"The Retail Golfer"
« Reply #52 on: August 06, 2007, 11:24:26 PM »
If just plain 'golfer' doesn't do it, then the 'average' golfer....or 'everyday' golfer is fine for me. The term 'retail' makes me feel too much like some impersonal commodity riding along on a conveyor belt.

I have always had a disdain for the 'joe sixpack' golfer term.

I like 'golf business' better than 'golf industry'.

Wow....now back to planning a fly-in residential golf community that's one hour from anywheres by car.....try making those numbers work......do you think that a ratio of 3 to one for non taxi-able lots to taxi-able ones is a good one?....do retail golfers have their own planes?.....do you think retail gofers will object to sharing a practice range in runway approach areas with aggregated hanger complexes?

Can I go to bed now or should I have a glass of wine? :)
« Last Edit: August 07, 2007, 04:55:03 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"The Retail Golfer"
« Reply #53 on: August 06, 2007, 11:27:37 PM »
My take is that it somehow attempts to diminish the golfer who may not read about architecture or know about the latest trends. It suggests, derogatorily, that there must be other categories of golfers who are more sophisticated and "in-the-know."

Forrest, any time you modify the term "golfer" with an adjective I suppose you're in danger of insulting someone.  Reading Dream Golf I found it refreshing, not off-putting, that Mike Keiser cared enough about his future customers that he took pains to see that his perception of their views was represented.  

I took "retail golfer" simply as a short-hand term to describe the target customer.  The target would include a guy who would spend $5k on a trip to Scotland because he wanted to learn more about the game, experience links golf,  and see the historic courses.  I don't think that's an "average" golfer as described above, but I may be insulting someone with that statement.  I understood Keiser wanted to build something in the U.S. that would emulate the "real thing--" links golf in the U.K and Ireland.  I also recall reading with amusement that he didn't think many golfers, retail, "core" or otherwise, would make the trek to Bandon.  Doesn't seem like there was any dumbing down to please anyone, just an entrepreneur whose good taste was validated by the project's phenomenal success.   Maybe we need more projects to be guided by a concern (which I thought was genuine on Keiser's part) for "retail golfers."

Perhaps the term you're thinking of that seems to suggest there are "golfers who are more sophisticated and 'in-the-know'" is "core golfers."  That strikes me as elitist.  Who's to say who's "core" and who isn't?  Is there a Committee of Core Golfers and a Secret Handshake?

Now if the balance of power shifts to an excessive number of "retail golfers" and less "core golfers"......  What does that mean for the future of the industry?



Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"The Retail Golfer"
« Reply #54 on: August 07, 2007, 05:30:15 AM »
Bill Gayne --

Do you really think that's what Mike Keiser is all about?

Dan

I don't know Mike Keiser so I can't comment on what he's all about. The word "retail" has a somewhat negative bias to me.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"The Retail Golfer"
« Reply #55 on: August 07, 2007, 09:21:06 AM »
The antithesis of retail golfer is country club golfer.

In the long run, the retail golfer appears to be able to get his golf at below cost, compared to the private club golfer.

Ergo, no derogatory implication. I will admit public golf is not for everyone.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Peter Pallotta

Re:"The Retail Golfer"
« Reply #56 on: August 07, 2007, 10:21:37 AM »
I don't like the term for no other reason than it seems to be part of a trend that wants to make a "commodity" out of everyone and everything.  It's like when they started using "consumer" instead of customer, as if we're not people who occasionally might buy something (i.e. a customer) but instead some ravenous entity placed here on earth simply to consume, 24 hours a day - food, books, art, golf.

But maybe I just woke up on the wrong side of the bed.  

Peter

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"The Retail Golfer"
« Reply #57 on: August 07, 2007, 01:03:19 PM »
Does anyone know where this term originated? That would shed a lot of light on this...I think.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"The Retail Golfer"
« Reply #58 on: August 07, 2007, 02:24:33 PM »
Forrest,
Probably the same guy who came up with 'trade rate' for discounted rounds to those who work in the golf 'industry'.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"The Retail Golfer"
« Reply #59 on: August 07, 2007, 03:18:26 PM »
Does anyone know where this term originated? That would shed a lot of light on this...I think.

Forrest.....I would bet more than a little bit that you know who started the term and are just holding out while you make me come up with answers that make me look like a jackass ;D, which worries me a little....I mean what if the guy I'm doing this fly-in golf plan for happens to log in here?

If he does want to boot me maybe we could team up and do it jointly as a confidence booster.....and I'll promise to wear one of those Mexican wrestling masks while I'm in the field and to meetings [but not on any plane flights].

I think this is a fine backup plan....what say you amigo?


 
« Last Edit: August 07, 2007, 03:20:16 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Peter Pallotta

Re:"The Retail Golfer"
« Reply #60 on: August 07, 2007, 03:48:16 PM »
Paul
if you go that route, might I suggest that your stage name not be "El Arquitecto".  

It would give away your true identity, but also it's not very menancing to guys like "El Assasin" and "El Tigre".

Peter
« Last Edit: August 07, 2007, 04:01:37 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"The Retail Golfer"
« Reply #61 on: August 07, 2007, 04:08:28 PM »
I truly do not know who, but it seems to be something that is catching on.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"The Retail Golfer"
« Reply #62 on: August 07, 2007, 04:11:27 PM »
Both www.retailgolfer.com and www.theretailgolfer.com are unclaimed.

Go get 'em, Forrest!

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"The Retail Golfer"
« Reply #63 on: August 07, 2007, 04:22:28 PM »
Pass. But thanks.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"The Retail Golfer"
« Reply #64 on: August 07, 2007, 04:31:21 PM »
Pass. But thanks.

When both of those sites become household names, and the expression "retail golfer" is on EVERYONE's lips, I'll remind you that you could have prevented it!

And, more seriously, I would suggest that the expression is not catching on. A Google search for "retail golfer" gets a mere 40 hits. It's not that easy to come up with fewer.

"Wholesale golfer" gets 90!
« Last Edit: August 07, 2007, 04:34:52 PM by Dan Kelly™ »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"The Retail Golfer"
« Reply #65 on: August 07, 2007, 06:22:07 PM »
Paul
if you go that route, might I suggest that your stage name not be "El Arquitecto".  

It would give away your true identity, but also it's not very menancing to guys like "El Assasin" and "El Tigre".

Peter

I don't know Peter...."El Arquitecto" is a whole lot better than the full name of "El Arquitecto de Campo del Golfo".....even I feel silly when I have to say that ;).
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"The Retail Golfer"
« Reply #66 on: August 07, 2007, 07:25:32 PM »
How about:

El Publico Arquitecto de Campos de Golf?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2007, 07:26:09 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"The Retail Golfer"
« Reply #67 on: August 08, 2007, 08:19:11 AM »
Does anyone know where this term originated? That would shed a lot of light on this...I think.

It's safe to assume, in this context, Mike Keiser came up with the term. Specifically, who would come and play Bandon.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Josh_Lesnik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"The Retail Golfer"
« Reply #68 on: August 08, 2007, 10:40:56 AM »
One of the ingredients that I see in Mike that I think is part of the stew that makes him successful (makes his creations well liked?)is that he is an opinion gatherer.  He likes to ask people questions about what they like and don't like whether it is a greeting card or a golf hole. Everyone around him feels included, whether Mike takes the advice or not, he listens gracefully, never getting defensive.  He's done this since day one of his search for links-type-land to build Bandon Dunes.  And throughout the entire building of Bandon Dunes Golf Resort.  I had never heard the term retail golfer before Mike used it, but that doesn't mean he was the first.  He really used it, simply, to describe his friends that he brought out to Bandon.  Guys that spend money traveling and playing golf.  In no way, as far as I could tell, was Mike "dumbing down" anything or anyone.  In fact, as Tom Doak said, Mike holds this "retail golfer" or "affluent golf traveler" (another term we use occasionaly) in very high regard.  They are our customers, and we think that golfers are very educated consumers.  They make educated decisions on where and when (and why, including architecture) to spend their golf dollars.  

In the case of Old Macdonald, Mike has almost taken the retail golfer theory to the next level by including the panel of architecture aficianados in the design team.  I'm sure Mike's friends will still get to come out with Mike and walk around in the sand and lob opinions, but Bahto, Klein, Olsen et al get to work more closely with Doak and Urbina.  Its fun to watch how Tom Doak listens (or not) to the ideas of the architecture panel - now thats fun!

Sorry for the long winded response, for really a simple little phrase that Mike used to describe his golf traveling friends and/or golf bell cows (opinion leaders) that he brought on design/build trips in order to gather ideas/opinions/discussion.

And lastly, Mike loves to give credit to these "retail golfers" with a lot of the little things that make Bandon Dunes Golf Resort what it is today.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"The Retail Golfer"
« Reply #69 on: August 08, 2007, 11:36:17 AM »
Josh — Thanks for the information and background.

I still feel the term is wrong. That is my gut instinct.

My informal, yet broad, poll of people (golfers) shows that nealy all take the term to mean that a golfer is being described as somewhat unknowing, and perhaps unsophisticated, when it comes to being a consumer of golf. I doubt you will find many golfers who would truly want to be described by this term.

As I posted earlier, I think golf does itself some harm when we begin to put such labels out there. I would still like to know where it originated...did Mike hear it from someone/someplace in partiucular?

« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 11:36:54 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"The Retail Golfer"
« Reply #70 on: August 08, 2007, 11:36:57 AM »
Josh.....good response from a person who is definitely in the know.

BTW....welcome aboard! :)
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"The Retail Golfer"
« Reply #71 on: August 08, 2007, 11:53:38 AM »
I would still like to know where it originated...did Mike hear it from someone/someplace in partiucular?

Mike Keiser strikes me as a fairly inventive man, capable of a coinage.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

David Druzisky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"The Retail Golfer"
« Reply #72 on: August 08, 2007, 08:22:07 PM »
Forest,  What? Haven't you been asked yet to do a retail design?

"Retail" a marketing term making its way into golf.  Too much marketing going on in the world.  When creativity bumps against marketing it can get a little messy.

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"The Retail Golfer"
« Reply #73 on: August 09, 2007, 12:58:10 AM »
Too much marketing going on in the world.  When creativity bumps against marketing it can get a little messy.
???

Don't understand this sentiment.  How in the world would we have golf architecture,  Andy Warhol, Picasso, or Michelango, who was after all commissioned to paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, without marketing?  Marketing and art have a symbiotic relationship.  

Or are you thinking that artists don't need to be salespeople, or needn't be required to make people aware of their talents, they ought to be able to get by on nothing, like the artist Joni Mitchell sings about, who plays "Real Good for Free"?

In Bandon Dunes Resort, you have creativity (with good taste) + marketing = successful project and business.  What is wrong with that?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 01:04:13 AM by Eric_Terhorst »

David Druzisky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:"The Retail Golfer"
« Reply #74 on: August 09, 2007, 01:35:49 PM »
Eric,

There is no doubt any good business uses marketing and in the end golf is a business.  In the current climate course managers and operators better be using marketing.  Developers better understand the market for new golf any time they consider golf as part of the development.  There is also a difference between marketing used in theplanning and  development of a course and that used to market it once it is open.  It is the former that I reference albeit too simply.  The later I fully appreciate and our industry could do a better job at.

As for Bandon, my impression, and this is impression only as I need to read his book, is that the fundamantal maketing belief he used in determining what to do there originally was to say "I am going to do something really cool, something pure on a great site conducive to it and hire the appropriate designer(s) because I believe there is a large enough market that will love it."  Because he is smart he has adapted along the way based on the particulars of the market that he has focused in on.  He had a creative vision based on a taget market and he ran with it.  Simple enough.

I think Forrest might be looking at "Retail Golfer" as a "mass" marketing term.  Would it be safe to say that design geared towards a mass market, though good and fiscally successful, is rarely great or uniquely inspiring?  Hmmmmm.

Responsible designers all use a form of market sense when determining the type, style, and  character of course they are designing based on the identified primary end users(a marketing term) - private, resort, daily-fee, public, etc  Of course, we do not just blow in and do whatever we want regardless of the customer.   Okay, maybe a select few get away with that aproach. ;D

What gets talked about here on this site is not for the masses.  The masses are most impressed by Agusta and think TOC is a goat pasture.  Developers marketing data tells us they need a golf hole with cascading waterfalls and lakes as part of the entry to their development.  They want green, green, green manicured grasses and pretty landscape.  Would it be safe to say that the Trump efforts speak to those trends based on his comments.  The ease at which the tour players are getting hired to design courses also suggests marketing.  Thank goodness some of them have some great designers working for them.

To relay a story, my father has been a successful GC Superintendent for many, many, and many years (sorry dad about the many).  one of the courses he was at - a very high end resort course on the coast - had fine fescues in the rough and bermudagrass fairways and rough.  He was under constant fire to "green up" the grasses by management because the marketing feedback they got from the players.  of course on the coast bermuda is a bear to keep green because a general lack of warmth and sun.  But he kept it very healthy, consistent and fairly firm for maximum playability.  The fescues he tried to not over water also for playability.  The result of course was things weren't always green.  Also, the greens never got infested with poa.  After he left that position things changed and they over seeded to make it "greener". Eventually turf conditions and playability went south and major renovation has since taken place.

As a designer I guess I keep it to the belief that golf is meant to be fun and inspiring.  Beyond that, each project has different sets of design variables that me and my client determine are best suited for that particular effort.

Does that make more sense because I am not sure?

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