Patrick,
please point out the language in the regulations that SINGLE OUT golf courses....

Yeah Patrick this is a great nation...that does not change the fact that the Clark Fork River is a super fund clean up site that stretches 150 miles...nor does it change the fact that the Old Woks is built on a super fund site...nor does it change the fact that a cyanide plume is oozing around Milltown damn and polluting wells and groundwater....and could eventually contaminate the very water Canyon River Golf course uses to irrigate...the COST for being such a terrific nation with such a wonderful standard of living has been some serious enviromental issues that threaten the next generation's opportunity to enjoy the same standard of living that you enjoyed...

Nonsense.

The next generation's ability to enjoy a good standard of living has been jeopardized by forcing industry/commerce to alien shores.  Those nation's next generation will enjoy a better standard of living than the previous one because commercial enterprises which used to be in America will produce the wage base to enable them to do so, while earning a good living in this country will have gotten substantially more difficult.  Just ask Shivas.

And, your point has got NOTHING to do with GOLF COURSES.

What you fail to realize is that much of the pollution you refer to was done without the knowledge of the long term effects to the environment, by anyone, private and public sector alike.

Do you think that anyone in America in the height of the industrial revolution and the agronomic bounty in the 1800's understood the impact of the residues from their endeavors ?

In the early 1900's ?

It's only in the last few decades that an awareness of the environmental issues came to light.

And what happened when it came to light ?
 
We made efforts to remediate the problems created by prior generations while trying to continue with our economic growth in a prudent fashion  

But, the extremists want to go beyond reasonableness, they want to extract their pounds of flesh.[/color]

I get around quite a bit and am old enough to marvel at the great improvement in this nations air and water quality.
It has never been better since probably pre industrial times, when the population was a tiny fraction of today's.

Does anyone else remember when the Cuyahoga river caught on fire?
Or that Lake Erie was almost as dead as its fisheries.

Or that the Hudson River south of Albany was totally polluted?

Today fish are once again being eaten out of these rivers.
The Connecticut River is once again enjoying a Salmon run.

If these rivers are are that improved at their outfall, then that speaks volumes about how clean they must be upstream.


I tend to agree with Patrick that we over regulate.

The various agencies just don't know where to stop at times.
When they achieve a certain standard they have the tendency to ratchet them up with newer and more restrictive goals.

I see this in the golf side and I consider myself a steward when it comes to practical conservation.
Earlier this year I put 2,000 acres, including 7 miles of riverfront, in a never to be changed easement that was the biggest donation for Georgia's Land Trust ever.
I am forming the Satilla River Center, a non profit foundation to foster all sorts of studies and educational programs about the river system.

My goal is another 10,000 acres in five years, which is realistic as I am realizing a critical mass and have a track record.

BTW, this has been done on my own private initiative.
I can be much more effective as an individual than working with a group.
A group would still be bogged down in committee.

Saw my first Florida [or should I now say Georgia] Panther just the other day.

I am not really sure why I am sharing this as I much prefer to be behind the scene.

I am writing this from a site in Baja California, where the standards for air and water quality are 1960's at best.

Patrick, you are correct, business and the US government have worked hand in hand during the last two administrations to negotiate trade deals that have wrecked the American middle class and exploided foreign workers and their enviroment...

The bad deals extend far beyond the last two administrations.[/color]

It wasn't enough that large resource extractive companies had to leave behind a legacy of pollution and dead workers here in the US west, but now they have moved their opperations to Asia and South America

What's that got to do with GOLF COURSES ?

Which companies have moved THEIR operations to Asia and South America ?[/color]

...come to Libby Montana and we'll go talk with the folk up there that have lost family members to asbestos related deaths...so far more than 200 workers

What has that got to do with GOLF COURSES ?
How do you know the cause of death ?
What company did they work for ?[/color]

...or come to Butte Montana and we'll tour the Berkeley Pit...hundreds of millions of gallons of toxic water sitting in a big hole in the ground right smack in the middle of the city of Butte....

What has that got to do with GOLF COURSES ?
The Berkley Pit was an open Copper mine.
And, as I understand it, that water isn't going anywhere.[/color]

or maybe we could take a tour up Gold Creek...once a thriving spawning creek for Bull trout...which by the way are now on the Endangered Species list...the Gold Creek drainage is thousands of acres of clear cuts...the company that cut the forest told the workers, and the mills, that they practiced sustainable forestry and they had years of trees to supply the mills...one small problem...they increased the harvest and cut it all off in 1/3rd the time so they could sell the land and move their operations to a foreign country...exploitation knows no boundries...

What has that got to do with GOLF COURSES ?

What was the company's name.

And, how do you know what they told the workers ?
Do you have the written documents confirming your allegation ?[/color]

Patrick,are you beginning to see a cumulative impact here?


No, I see three isolated, unrelated allegations/incidents in a State that's 147,000 square miles.[/color]

Are you beginning to see that many people, and many beautiful areas, that are important for clean air and clean water (which I happen to need) have paid the price for your beautiful standard of living?  

That's pure bullshit.
Ask all those people employed by industry, directly and indirectly, about how they paid for the cars, homes, clothing and other items that afforded them a decent life style.  It wasn't from donations from the likes of you.[/color]

Someone always pays the price Patrick, but I bet you've avoided it...or most of it.

I'll bet you don't know what you're talking about.
Tell me what price I've avoided paying.[/color]

Now that it's occuriing out of sight in a foreign country who cares?  Right?

You can't be that naive, stupid, zealous or politically blind.
Now you're saying it's my/our responsibility to dictate to other nations how to conduct their commercial and agricultural affairs.

I'm an "America First" advocate.
I want us to take care of ourselves before we send a dime overseas.  If Asian, African, South American companies pursue the development of their contries, that's their business.  Jobs are leaving America because government didn't create an environment where businesses can thrive and compete favorably.  Government's policies were adversarial, not co-operative.

You just don't get it.  You continue to tilt at windmills, insisting that more stringent regulations are necessary, which will further drive commercial ventures and farms out of business.  Then, when most of Montana is unemployed, you'll complain that it's businesses fault for not investing in Montana.

You can't have it both ways.

You may prefer living in the woods, communing with ferns, flowers and fauna, I prefer more in the way of creature comforts, including playing golf on a course that has creeks/streams that meander through it.[/color]

Patrick...I have a little more time this evening to respond to your earlier post...

Regarding Libby Montana:  

"How do you know the cause of death ?
What company did they work for ?"

Asbesteosis...200 confirmed dead so far....in the discovery leading up to the trial (coming up soon) it was found that the company KNEW that 100's of workers and their families were being exposed to asbestos and it would kill them...

That's interesting.
The trial HASN'T started yet, but, you're in possession of the discovery documents.

Being exposed to asbestos doesn't automatically convey a death sentence as you erroneously report.

Some people smoke several packs of cigarettes a day and never experience lung problems.  While actuaries can predict mortality within a sampling of large numbers, in NJ only the Mafia knows their names.[/color]

The company is WR GRACE...they of course are being sued.


But, companies don't make policy, individuals do.
Are the individuals that, according to you, murdered these 100 people behind bars on criminal convictions ?
Certainly you must know, since you're in possession of the pre-trial discovery documents.[/color]

As for the Berkeley Pit:

"The Berkley Pit was an open Copper mine.
And, as I understand it, that water isn't going anywhere."

The toxic water is draining into the pit and will EVENTUALLY fill it over the rim...

EVENTUALLY ?
That's not true and you know it.
Steps have been taken to prevent the rise in the water.
So, my statement is correct, the water isn't going anywhere and it HASN'T contaminated the water supply.

Try being intellectually honest when you present your argument, it would be refreshing.[/color]

in the meantime, people are trying to figure out how to solve this future problem....you are correct...so long as the water is in the pit, no one feels concerned enough to move very fast...here's a link to some information...

Thanks.[/color]

http://www.mbmg.mtech.edu/env-berkeley.htm


I"m aware of the situation.
What you fail to recognize is that the open copper mine began in 1955.  First, Open mines are far safer than underground mines.  Second, in 1955 NOONE knew of the long term effects/impact the mine would have on the environment.

You continue to rant and rave in the context of current information and technology, applied retroactively, when NOONE, neither industry nor the government, understood the potential long term impacts.[/color]

Regarding Gold Creek...and timber harvest in western Montana

"What was the company's name.

And, how do you know what they told the workers ?
Do you have the written documents confirming your allegation ?"

The companies were Champion and B&N (Burlington Northern)

What they said, and what they did is well documented in Richard Mannings' book  "Last Stand: Logging, Journalism, and the Case for Humility"

Oh, so all of a sudden, one author represents the Gospel according to Craig Sweet.

I'll ask the question again, do you have documentation supporting your allegations ?[/color]

Manning had access to corporate memo's etc that support his writing...like I said, well documented...

Then, you should have no problem producing them.[/color]

Patrick, when you come out we can ask some of those folk in Libby how they feel about WR GRACE and ask if it was all worth it....same for the folk in Butte and the millworkers that lost their jobs, their homes, their cars, everything.

I"m not interested in selected samplings or 20-20 hindsight.

You can come to NJ and ask people who used to be employed in dignified jobs how they feel about their plight since the government forced their companies and the jobs that came with them, out of business or to other states or countries.
[/color]

Patrick, the Libby case is well documented and has been on national news on numerous occasions...the trial will put WR GRACE officials on trial...

If the case hasn't yet gone to trial, how are you in possesion of the discovery documents ?

Don't duck the issue, you made an allegation and claimed to base it on depositions obtained in the discovery process, SO, Answer the question.[/color]

The fact is, hundreds of people living in Libby and working at the WR GRACE mine have died from asbesteosis...the sad thing is, GRACE knew the danger and kept it from the workers...again..this is documented.

Great, then produce the documents.

This mine opened in 1913 and W.R. Grace had NOTHING to do with it until 1963, fifty years after it had been in operation.[/color]

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/211169_libby08.html


This is a newspaper article.
It does not contain any depositions obtained during discovery.
Depositions which you claimed to be on possession of.
Were you lying about this as well ?[/color]

"Second, in 1955 NOONE knew of the long term effects/impact the mine would have on the environment."

What a convienent excuse....but I bet they knew exactly what effects/impacts the mine would have....in Butte and in Libby...the Pit continues to fill up...where will the toxic water go when the time comes?  
[size=4x]
The toxic water hasn't gotten into the city water supply...yet...[/size]

YET ?  There is NO YET.
IF the toxic water hasn't gotten in to the water supply, it HASN'T gotten in to the water supply.

The water level in the pit is 2,000 feet below the level established by the government, and a treatment plant is/has been built that will treat the water in the pit.  So stop claiming that things have and will continue to happen when they HAVEN'T happened and steps have been taken to make sure they DON'T happen.

The fact is, you're disengenuous and intellectually dishonest.
You'll lie, misrepresent and distort anything and everything in an attempt to put forth your agenda[/color]

but as I pointed out, in Milltown and Bonner, very close to the Canyon River golf course, a large toxic blume from the Clark Fork River has gotten into wells and other drinking supplies....

You continue to be dishonest by interspersing the completely seperate incidents as if they were one.  

Are you now stating, unequivically, that the Canyon River Golf Course has caused the toxix plume and contaminated the wells adn drinking water.   YES or NO ?
If YES, what evidence do you have to support your position.
If NO, then stop with these baseless allegations.

In 1955, Noone in the private or public sector was aware of the long term affects of open mining in Butte.  If you have evidence to the contrary, please supply it.  If you don't, admit that you misrepresented the facts and distorted the truth.[/color]

" In 1981, the Missoula City/County Health Department informed the residents of Milltown, Bonner and Piltzville that their wells were contaminated with over 10 times the amount of arsenic that federal drinking water standards allow.


The Feds have stated that there has been NO contamination of the ground water outside of the Berkeley Pit, so why are you claiming the Berkeley Pit is contaminating the water of other communities ?

Craig, I know this is difficult for you, but have someone explain to you that 1981 is 26 years removed from 1955.[/color]

Leaching from behind the dam are toxic mining sediments of copper, zinc, cadmium, lead and arsenic which are strongly linked to bladder, lung and kidney cancer. Wells were shut down and bottled water distributed."

What dam ?  There is no dam at the Berkeley Pit.
Stop cross polinating the issues.[/color]

Here's another link to an excelelnt article on what happened to western timberlands

http://www.hcn.org/servlets/hcn.Article?article_id=5760

Craig, it's not an article, it's a NEWSLETTER, not government documentation.
Ask yourself, do NEWSLETTERS have agendas  ?[/color]

Patrick...lets go look at the graves of the 200 people that have died

What will that tell you ?[/color]

and lets look at the death certificates..underlying cause of death...asbesteosis....

How do you know ?
Have you seen the DC's ?
Are you certain that the employers knew the of the risks associated with asbestos so many years ago ?
When I was a kid, every school I went to had asbestos as a fire retardant.[/color]

but you can be the one to ask the families to prove it, OK.

If you're going to accuse individuals of causing the deaths of others you have to prove it, not just say it.[/color]

As for Gold Creek and the clear cuts...they speak for themselves.  And the companies responsible are gone....

JUST like you Parick, I reley on someone doing the investigative work and reporting it...I don't have time, nor do I get paid to dig through thousands of pages of company memo's...emails...reports..etc...but people like Dick Manning DO GET PAID to do that...

Like Mike Nifong and the three Duke Lacrosse players ?

Before condemning anyone I'd like to see all the facts and see the accused have their day in court.[/color]

What Champion International and BN did is pretty much the story of the west...exploit the people and the land,amke a ton of money and leave a mess...

Another general condemnation absent any specific facts[/color]

The people in Libby are not sitting by and saying "gee, what a wonderful life the vermiculite mine provide my father and his father and me...they are pissed off because the company lied and covered up a major health issue and people have died by the hundreds..

How do you know what the people in Libby think ?
Did you poll them ?
You have to stop making outrageous statements without supporting documentation[/color]

Patrick...hopefully the people mining the metals in a Ping driver have been told the truth about any possible health risk and hopefully the companies mining the metals will be responsible....

If the company isn't aware of the problems how can they tell the employees about them ?

That's the point you keep missing.
You keep evaluating events circa 1913 -1955 in a 2007 context.[/color]

HOWEVER...if they are doing the mining in South America, chances are, they could give a rats ass about anything other than the bottom line.

That's just a dumb statement.
How do you know whatn they think ?

You're so anti-business that it doesn't cloud your judgement, it blinds your judgement.[/color]