Kyle,

Not to guys who are carrying it 280 in 52 degree, damp weather.

AND,

Not to guys who carry their irons that long

Also, it's nice that it is practically intertwined with the 17th fairway... makes for some good stolen glances at competitors at the end of the final round as they pass each other :-)

Quote from: Kyle Harris on July 22, 2007, 03:01:54 PM

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on July 22, 2007, 02:59:36 PM

Kyle,

Not to guys who are carrying it 280 in 52 degree, damp weather.

AND,

Not to guys who carry their irons that long

By that logic, the burn on 17 and 18 at Carnoustie has no significance. Come on here, Pat, I'm with you on a lot of things - but to say the 18th at Merion has no fear factor is a stretch.

Kyle,

I didn't say it didn't have a fear factor, I said it didn't have a "substantive" fear factor, especially when compared to the fear factor at # 18 at NGLA

Paul,

Pat Mucci has had a lifelong love affair with NGLA and nary a discouraging word can have any merit in his closed mind.  A world-class finishing hole?  It is excellent, but does not attain the status Pat confers on it.  It is a short par 5 where driver isn't called for.  There is a very conservative way to play the hole which takes all the hazards out of play and makes 4 a slight possibility but makes a 5 highly likely with no worse than 6 possible.  

Could you describe that method, the conservative way that takes ALL the hazards out of play ?

To help you I've included the aerial  


[/color]

Going for it in 2, well that brings other scores into play as with Merion at the same length but with hazards that are more in play, more topographic movement and a far more demanding green complex.  

Perhaps revisiting the aerial will bring you to your senses.[/color]

Pat mentions that Merion has been stretched over time.  So was NGLA, just not nearly as recently.

The forward tees have not been moved.
The middle tees have been lengthened by 11 yards by taking them back to the original back tee, and, the back tee has been lengthened by 20 yards since inception.

I believe that Merion has been lengthened far more than 20 yards, and, not that long ago.[/color]

Too bad Macdonald didn't foresee the distance impact and buy more land or route with more elasticity in mind.  Elasticity would help greatly as at other of his courses.  But there isn't any on the final hole.  

That's untrue, totally inaccurate.
There's a good 52 yards that the 18th hole could be lengthened by, and that's BEFORE you get to the gates that TEPaul doesn't want moved.  There's additional land further east of the gates that could have/could be used.

I've championed moving the back tee back at least 52 yards which would make a world of difference, and, if the gates were moved north by 50 feet, another 30 or more yards could be obtained.[/color]

I'd play it as a par 4 so no lengthening is required and the psychological impact would be an improvement.

The problem with that is that the diabolical left side fairway complex is often taken out of play.

This was an architectural feature meant to influence the drive and interface with the golfer, therefore, lengthening the back tee would be more in keeping with CBM's design integrity.[/color]

By the way, speaking of safety net, what do you think the bunkers behind the 18th green at NGLA are for?  

There is only ONE bunker behind the 18th green and it doesn't cover the entire rear of the green, only part of it.
And, that's a shallow bunker in terms of depth, not much of a safety net, unless you're extremely lucky.

What's it like behind # 18 at Merion ?
Does it fall off 50 feet to virtually unplayable terrain ?
And, how's the visual into # 18 at Merion ?
Visually intimidating or benign ?[/color]

Increased intensity or an aid to going long?  

It's invisible to the golfer's eye, and not much of a psychological, visual or physical crutch[/color]

That green is so wide open in the front that there is not much of a "fear factor" going on at that end.  

Perhaps to the untrained eye.
The left side of the fairway/green slope down into a difficult bowl.

Noone ventures to the right side of the green.

From 150 to 10 yards the approach to # 18 at NGLA is visually and physically intimidating.  That's not the case with
# 18 at Merion.[/color]

Merion and Carnoustie have a much more scary green surround than NGLA.

Surely, you jest.
It's not even close.

As to Carnoustie, absent the stands for the Open, it presents different surrounds.

Is this insane defense of # 18 at Merion part of the initiation process whereby you remain on double secret probation for five years ?  [/color]

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on July 21, 2007, 11:08:54 AM

Glenn Spencer,

Do #'s 18 at WFW, Oakmont and Shinnecock have birdie as a practical option ?

How would you compare the practical birdie option at those holes to the practical birdie option at # 18 at Carnoustie ?

Patrick,

I haven't played any of those three, but I think they have a hell of a lot more than Carnoustie. The reason is because there isn't out of bounds 25 feet from the green and a bank leading to that OB. Winged Foot and Shinnecock are not that long of holes and Oakmont can be birdied with a reasonable pin. All the pins at Carnoustie 18 are the same- pretty much unbirdieable, because of the risk.