[Kevin Pallier]

Good on Greg - for coming up with a Marketing line along those lines. I think some here are reading too much into it.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike Sweeney:

If you think I'm part of the problem, I'm sorry you do, but I don't restrict your right to say so.

I think quotes like Norman's are one of the problems with golf course architecture.  In fact, I've said before that marketing, in general, is one of the factors which has raised the price of golf and dumbed down the discussion ... because every single course is "great" and full of signature holes.

I recognized in my first post that it is hard for any golf course architect to keep finding new things to say about their work, and the pressure from clients and their silly marketing people is always to say things you don't want to say.  I think I have more of a background in writing about golf courses than most architects, and I am always trying to stay ahead of the curve and say something different ... but it's got to be something meaningful, too.

Be honest; if I had used the same quote as Norman you would have skewered me for it.  Somebody has to call b.s. on this practice or it's never going to stop.  You're welcome to call me on things whenever you feel the need, but you are not welcome to tell me to stop posting on any subject.  As for other architects, if they avoid this place because they think it's my fan club, it's their loss.  (Or their gain ... the jury is still out on that one!)

[John Kavanaugh]

No one ever sent me that Sebonack DVD...Seems like I called it bad for golf or something of the sort and I was going to view it and defend myself.

John Kavanaugh
P.O. Box 551
Lawrenceville, IL 62439

[Jeff_Brauer]

Despite many of you thinking that it would be great for gca's to take pot shots at each other, I think this thread illustrates the reasons most of us try not to, at least in public!  While some will appreciate the comments, many more will find a twinge of unease.

That said, I found it to be a relatively typical quote, and not comparing himself to the Mick, but rather, expressing joy at having experienced a similar sensation.  If it is a BS filled statement, then I can only conclude the the Mick was an early marketeer and his was a BS filled statement to a greater degree.  Really, while its hard to compare art forms, I think the variations in land suggest golf holes more than a  monolitic block of marble suggest art, no?

BTW, we all have enough ego to believe that we are best in the world at finding natural golf holes.  Does the fact that GN managed to sum up in a sentence that he feels the same way make it any worse a statement than what others say?  

Just my opinion, and as always, I could be wrong......

[John Kavanaugh]

Isn't sculpture the simplest of all art forms?  Is the statue David perfectly to scale or was he Irish?

[JESII]

Well, you guys have referred to Michelangelo as the Big Mic a couple of times through this thread...maybe he was expressing himself...but abain, I thought he was Italian...

[Mike Hendren]

"Silly marketing people" need to earn a living too.

After a round of golf on a hot summer day, everybody's feet stink, notwithstanding the fact that you can only smell someone else's.  Sorry, but the pot/kettle/black thing was just too easy.

Mike

[Tommy Williamsen]

That said, I found it to be a relatively typical quote, and not comparing himself to the Mick, but rather, expressing joy at having experienced a similar sensation.  If it is a BS filled statement, then I can only conclude the the Mick was an early marketeer and his was a BS filled statement to a greater degree.  Really, while its hard to compare art forms, I think the variations in land suggest golf holes more than a  monolitic block of marble suggest art, no?

 
Just my opinion, and as always, I could be wrong......

Jeff, maybe you have not seen David.  It is more than a miracle in marble. It is more than an astonishingly creative rendering of a human with all its intricacies.  It is a vision into the soul of David.  That is what Michaelangelo brought to the Italian rennassiance. David may elevate the human Spirit as much as any sculpture or painting ever created.

That said, it is probably not wise to compare different creative arts. How can The Ode to Joy in Beehoven's ninth Symohony be compared to David, except that they both elevate us to see the beauty of the divine in the human.

There ARE some are golf courses that elevate the human spirit and bring joy because of their beauty of design and the beauty of  the surroundings.  Let's compare it to other golf venues.  That should be sufficient.  I actually felt that when I played your Quarry Course in Northern MN.

But saying that the creativity of discovering a course on a particular piece of ground is similar to Michaelangelo discovering David is the block of marble is only comparing the creative process, not the finished work.  I agree that is a fair comparison

[Ulrich Mayring]

Taken at face value the comparison of the processes is fair, but names like Michelangelo or Hitler are absolutely ill-suited to illustrate a rational point. Do I want to hear that someone builds his cart-paths the same way Hitler built the Autobahn? Nope. And neither do I want to hear about Michelangelo in Golf architecture, unless someone is clearly an equal of the Renaissance master.

Ulrich

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tommy,

First, thanks for the nice words on the Quarry.  Golf courses in spectacular settings can elevate a mood and feeling, and its good to know I might have accomplished that.

I have not seen David, but agree from pictures that it is one great work of art. (is that allowed in art critique?)

My take on Normans' quote was just as you say - apparently having studied the classics a bit, he seemed overjoyed to perhaps his own venue captured a slice of Michaelangelo's creative joy.  I didn't take it that he was comparing the art that resulted as comparable, as Tom surmised.

As great as David is, I did find myself wondering if he really could envision the final result before chipping away at the monolith block from just looking at it. I suspect he had made some sketches and other pre-planning first and fashioned the final greatness slowly, once he got the basic forms chieseld away.  Any chance he used a "template" statue?

I also found myself wondering if his PR guy was in the background - even back in those days - at the time pestering him for something quotable to market the piece with!  As was suggested, his reputation may have grown (as other artists) over time and in death, etc., by his benefactors and supporters. I am sure he had his critics, as well.  (Great work, but did you hear how many Lira they paid for that? )   Perhaps the quote didn't even come from him, but has been attributed to him.

For that matter, artists and designers have ALWAYs perpetuated a certain image, and human nature hasn't changed a lot.  It wouldn't surprise me if that was a BS quote from him or his people.

Marketing and Self Promotion didn't start with Greg Norman or even in GCA.  Trent Jones stole his "My favorite course is my next one" from FLW, for instance and I as sure Wright got it from someone else. If Tom doesn't feel too shy about coming back on here, I wonder how he came to his opinion that starting in gca, this kind of "sound bite" has come to be a bad thing.  Was it detrimental to art, architecture or other fields (which is nearly all of them) that self promote, in a way we can measure?

And, a bit more pointed, since its not clear to all, how does he feel he is doing things differently to the advancement of the gca craft?  I believe he is, after all, a master marketeer, and it has been a huge part of his success.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Jeff, maybe you have not seen David.  It is more than a miracle in marble. It is more than an astonishingly creative rendering of a human with all its intricacies.  It is a vision into the soul of David.  That is what Michaelangelo brought to the Italian rennassiance. David may elevate the human Spirit as much as any sculpture or painting ever created.

I don't see it.  Please explain how David is more a vision into the soul of man then let's say a Robert Mapplethorpe photograph?  What did David have on his mind?  What is the inspiration?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ulrich,

Not sure about Michaelangelo being a bad comparison - if others make it for you. I think Tom's point was that the quote by Norman MAY have made that comparison in the finished products, and in so doing, was a bit pretentious, given the quality and timelessness of David has been well established, while only the marketeers have proclaimed the new Norman course as such. His supporters can come back 1000 years from now and make the claim for him.

In that, I agree with you and Tom, even though I think if he was trying to say that he thought he knew how "the Mic" felt, or was trying to emulate the process, it could be altogether appropriate.  He may not have gotten there, or at least, not with the shortened version printed by the magazine.

As for Hitler, Johnny Carson tried a Hitler joke one night and bombed, but came back with a classic quip "Forty years later, and you still can't make a Hitler joke".  I could be wrong, or he could have also said that about Abe Lincoln jokes 100 years later.  Some things you just don't joke about in public, or use for marketing either!

[CHrisB]

Is the statue David perfectly to scale or was he Irish?

Are you implying that the Irish have abnormally large hands?

[John_Cullum]

I was plowing (slow plowing) through Irving Stone's Michelangelo (in German),

And here I am feeling all intellectual because I listened to The Agony and the Ecstasy book on tape (unabridged)

[Kirk Gill]

For some historical insight to Michelangelo, with particular reference to the painting of the Sistine Chapel, check out Ross King's "Michelangelo and the Pope's Ceiling." Terrific reading.

No golf course will ever have the cultural heft of the Sistine Chapel ceiling, and no GCA will ever have the cultural heft of Michelangelo. That said, touchstones and cultural references like that "angel in the marble" quote are pretty much used by everyone, and aren't limited to marketing types.

[Matthew Hunt]

I think it is OK for Tom to criticize what Norman said if he would say it to Greg’s face and could accept it if GN criticized his work.

I find it strange that that the same people say that TD shouldn’t evaluate and criticize other GCA’s work are the same people that probably the same people that treasure their ‘Confidential Guide’. From my understanding what sets this guide apart from other good guides is Doaks daring to give his true thoughts positive or negative about all the featured courses.

[Tom_Doak]

Matthew:

Saying something in print is just the same as saying it to someone's face in this day and age -- I learned that from The Confidential Guide.  I guess I could delete my initial post here but I have never done that on Golf Club Atlas and I'm not about to start hiding what I've said.  (It does worry me a bit that it's so easy to take something out of context, though -- anything you say in jest can be taken seriously by others after the fact.)

Jeff:

My "master marketing strategy" has always been never to say anything I don't honestly believe.  It's worked enormously well because when I tell a writer that Pacific Dunes is really good, they actually believe me, instead of thinking that it's just another marketing quote.  Someone above criticized me for writing that I thought Bandon Dunes was the best 36 holes of golf available to the public (or something like that), but I honestly believed it and it wasn't very far over the top.  

By the same token, if we've done another course that isn't at that level, I'll find a way to describe its merits without overplaying my hand.

What bothers me about all these new signature courses with their marketing quotes is that the designers never really say anything about them at all.  Norman compares his process to that of Michelangelo but he doesn't tell you the third hole is one of his favorites that he's done or that the views are exceptional or that the bunkers are similar to Royal Melbourne which he admires; it's all generic and impersonal and the architects don't seem to be even remotely invested in the work they've just done.  It's all just posturing.

Greg Norman has way better posture than either of us, but I do wonder how invested he is in the process of sculpture.

Eric:

Your question is better left to another thread at another time, I think.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom,

Thanks for the comments and fair enough.  There are those who believe in honesty is the worst policy when it comes to sales and marketing, and I know its always frustrating to compete with that.   I find it less frustrating to read it in magazines, because I follow the old "Give me the power to endure the things I cannot change, yada yada yada" adage.

I do agree that it would be nice to hear a more detailed description of the architects feelings and thoughts in those articles, but gather that we might all say those things, but in the end the writers write (I presume Normans PR people didn't get to actually write the piece) what they think readers want to read.

And frankly, I get the impression that anyone who really wants to know what a gca thinks is reading it here and no where else.  Everyone else is looking to kill the two hour flight to somewhere with something mind numbing that isn't alcohol.  So, United Airlines gives them what they want (or sells it to them for $5, with correct change appreciated)

I also agree that GN probably threw out that quote to show how worldly he was, but he might have only read one primer on sculpture to come up with that one, rather than  do what Matt Ward calls the "heavy lifting."  I guess there would be some Heavy Lifting done in creating David, or just moving it around to dust!

[Kirk Gill]

What bothers me about all these new signature courses with their marketing quotes is that the designers never really say anything about them at all.  Norman compares his process to that of Michelangelo but he doesn't tell you the third hole is one of his favorites that he's done or that the views are exceptional or that the bunkers are similar to Royal Melbourne which he admires; it's all generic and impersonal and the architects don't seem to be even remotely invested in the work they've just done.  It's all just posturing.

Can't disagree with that. The marketing of new courses DOES seem awfully generic, which leads to the obvious question - is the architecture as generic as the hype........?

Of course, in the context of an interview, what is printed and what is NOT printed isn't in the hands of the interviewee. It may be the writer and not the architect (or the marketing department) who decided that a discourse on the merits of the 13th hole, a reachable par 4 with a natural hump just short of the green.....(etc, etc,) was not necessary to appeal to their target audience. GN's mention of the angel in the marble, on the other hand, has pull-quote written all over it.

[Matthew Hunt]

Matthew:

Saying something in print is just the same as saying it to someone's face in this day and age -- I learned that from The Confidential Guide.  I guess I could delete my initial post here but I have never done that on Golf Club Atlas and I'm not about to start hiding what I've said.  (It does worry me a bit that it's so easy to take something out of context, though -- anything you say in jest can be taken seriously by others after the fact.)

Then I feel it is OK to say it then because you are not saying it 'behind his back'.

I agree with you because it is like Micheal Dell saying he vacumed Formed your processer shell with the skill of Di Vinci, its not true as he probably dosn't know what his Vacum Formers looks like!(Please excuse the bad example)

[Tommy Williamsen]

Jeff, maybe you have not seen David.  It is more than a miracle in marble. It is more than an astonishingly creative rendering of a human with all its intricacies.  It is a vision into the soul of David.  That is what Michaelangelo brought to the Italian rennassiance. David may elevate the human Spirit as much as any sculpture or painting ever created.

I don't see it.  Please explain how David is more a vision into the soul of man then let's say a Robert Mapplethorpe photograph?  What did David have on his mind?  What is the inspiration?

As I understand the Italian renaissance, Michaelangelo's study of form and facial features tells a story that is seen intuititvely.  I sat for an hour in front of David and two hours in front of his unfinished pieta' in the Duomo museum just to drink in the facial expressions.  David seems to be pondering his future.  His face is filled with serenty and uncertainty.  His right hand draped on his hip show a certain confidence.
Michaelangelo  was the first to do this with so much success.
Others have done well, I think of Rembrandt and the Return of the Prodigal, but for me personally Michaelangelo may be the master.

As for your comparison, I have no problem with you seeing the same or more in Maplethorpe.  

[John Kavanaugh]

As for your comparison, I have no problem with you seeing the same or more in Maplethorpe.  

Ouch..

[George Pazin]

Of course, in the context of an interview, what is printed and what is NOT printed isn't in the hands of the interviewee. It may be the writer and not the architect (or the marketing department) who decided that a discourse on the merits of the 13th hole, a reachable par 4 with a natural hump just short of the green.....(etc, etc,) was not necessary to appeal to their target audience. GN's mention of the angel in the marble, on the other hand, has pull-quote written all over it.

In my admittedly limited experience with the media - a couple articles written years ago about my little t shirt biz - this comment couldn't be more true. I was amazed what made it into the articles after meeting with someone and sharing what I thought were interesting stories and experiences.

[Tommy Williamsen]

John, I'm sorry, I did not mean that as a put down.  Nude women kissing are not my favorite subjects, however.

[John Kavanaugh]

John, I'm sorry, I did not mean that as a put down.

I honestly admired the effort and appreciate your response describing your thoughts on the sculptures.  I felt the same way when I first saw American Gothic....I just think when it comes to art we are too easily influenced by value and historical significance.  Kinda like golf courses.  I just saw your edit and didn't realize Mapplethorpe photographed women.  I would not recommend Googling him on the church computer or any other computer for that matter.

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