Shivas's cheater line

« **Reply #50 on:** May 14, 2007, 08:12:09 PM »

He's placing the cheater line on the line he thinks is the proper line. The playr then needs to execute the stroke.
There is no moral or ethical breakdown here, just nit picking.

« **Reply #51 on:** May 14, 2007, 08:47:56 PM »

Quote from: Tim Pitner on May 14, 2007, 05:07:11 PM

Quote from: Ryan Potts on May 14, 2007, 04:19:10 PM

What a horrible game competitive golf would be if your strict interpretation of this rule were followed. Amazingly, it would probably be worse than what we saw yesterday on the tube.

Ryan,

Can you explain these comments?

Yes, could you imagine the Rod Pamlings of the world hawking over his playing partner's putts looking to see if his Titleist line was pointing in the direction of his stroke? 13 year-olds in Amateur tournaments (or their parents) would be crying foul like crazy. It would be chaos....

« **Reply #52 on:** May 14, 2007, 09:35:15 PM »

Quote from: Jim_Kennedy on May 14, 2007, 05:55:45 PM

Pat,
Player's can use aids to alignment. You can place a club down to line yourself up for a stroke, or lay it across your shoulders, waist, etc..

Not during the course of a stroke.

Any such aid must be removed prior to the stroke, otherwise the golfer incurs a penalty.

And, if the club that's placed on the ground creates a lasting impression in the grass, that triggers a penalty.[/color]

I can't see how a line on the ball could thwart the intended challenge of a green. It won't read the break nor help with gauging the speed, and it surely won't aid you in regulating the length, speed, or tempo of your stroke.

If it's of NO assistance, why are the best players in the world constantly doing it ?

It's clearly an aid in aligning the intended line of the putt.[/color]

This is probably why the USGA doesn't specifically ban the practice from the rules and it probably wouldn't do so if greens became flatter.

How does the USGA reconcile the penalty for using the paddle grip on a putter and allowing a directional aid to be marked on the ball ?[/color]

Who likes 15' putts that look straight?

With my eyesight I couldn't tell the difference[/color]

« **Reply #53 on:** May 15, 2007, 05:04:11 AM »

Sean

I think so. The principle essentially is that you are entitled to the lie you origninally had--no more and no less. So, if you had a clean lie and the other player made a heel mark on it while playing his shot, you can restore the clean lie. And vice versa.

Rich

« **Reply #54 on:** May 15, 2007, 07:29:55 AM »

Are the Decisions in the rules binding?

« **Reply #55 on:** May 15, 2007, 08:54:48 AM »

Quote from: Shivas Schmidt on May 14, 2007, 12:18:10 PM

Quote from: Jon Wiggett on May 14, 2007, 10:18:54 AM
Shivas,

isn't the reference to mark intended for on the green only? or does it also mean the ball. Off the top of my head I can't say for sure. I agree with you though that it is not in the spirit of the game to try an gain an unfair advantage by tampering with equipment. On the other hand if you can holes putts you can do it with or without such lines and most of us that do it do it out of habit and ritual rather than anything else. For the rest they still keep on missing their quoter of putts.

The rule (as are many others) is split in two: through the green and on the green. What it says is that when your ball is on the green, "no mark shall be placed anywhere to indicate a line for putting". It doesn't exempt marks that are on the ball.

this seems much ado about nothing... 98 replies?

having only got as far as the above quoted text, apologies if i'm repeating anyone:

you could look at it this way, shivas... the "line" of the putt is directly between the ball and the cup... by placing a mark on your ball, you are not marking the "line" of the putt which starts once the ball has been struck and is starting to move...

...by the way, i don't do this but i do line the titleist sign up on the main...

...anyway, the benefit is minimal... psychological more than anything... what about two ball putters? that's the same thing...

« **Reply #56 on:** May 15, 2007, 08:55:56 AM »

Quote from: Dan Kelly on May 14, 2007, 04:24:36 PM

Am I the only one who tries to put a type-free white space at the top of my ball?

See, I'm one of those readaholic types -- and I figure it's hard to read and putt at the same time.

It's not always that easy to get a big old white space on top, as golf balls get more and more NASCARed up.

Nope, I'm the same. I only want to see a bare white patch when I'm putting, marks on the ball are only going to confuse me.

« **Reply #57 on:** May 15, 2007, 10:07:41 AM »

Pat,
If it's of NO assistance, why are the best players in the world constantly doing it ?
It's no more of an assistance then placing the seam, ala Venturi, along the intended line, which evolved into using the logo when cos. started putting them there and now they ink the mark themselves. No big gain or advantage, in my view. (I use the seam, but 180* from the logo)

How does the USGA reconcile the penalty for using the paddle grip on a putter and allowing a directional aid to be marked on the ball ?

I don't know, but they probably felt one gave an advantage and the other didn't.

« **Reply #58 on:** May 15, 2007, 10:25:35 AM »

I've always thought Mike Ditka used a cheater cigar.

Same with the guy who places his cigar next to his teed ball. That bastard cheated me.

Using a clock to speed up players on the green might solve this issue, no?

« **Reply #59 on:** May 15, 2007, 10:35:53 AM »

Quote from: Shivas Schmidt on May 15, 2007, 10:16:40 AM

First, the yardage book.

Then, on-course yardage markers that every Tom, Dick and Harry that can't hit the ball 200 yards have to sachay around the fairway to check, even when they're 240 away.

Then pin sheets that schmoes that'd be lucky to hit 3 greens a round feel compelled to pull out of their pockets before every approach to discern that the pin is 8 off the left and 6 from the front -- as if thaaaaaat bit o' knowledge helps them.

Then, the pre-shot routine.

Then, Eldrick and his cheater line.

Where does it end? When will you all have had enough of your game turn into watching paint dry?

despite everything i said above, i do agree with these sentiments...

« **Reply #60 on:** May 15, 2007, 10:58:44 AM »

I'm with ya on the spiritual aspects, I just don't believe that this one infringes on it. I feel that way because the fidgeting that these guys do doesn't seem to help them execute the shot any differently than if the lines were'nt there. As a matter of fact I believe they are hurt by it because now they are so focused on just one aspect of that shot they fail to take into account all the other factors that comprise the shot.

It's apparent Dave, this is an issue where you are right and anyone who disagrees with you is worng, and that is just too Wardian to promote further discussion. hint hint

« **Reply #61 on:** May 15, 2007, 11:29:16 AM »

Dave, Honestly, I read the rule to mean place on the putting surface, or beyond, just off the putting surface.

If I do decide to use someones bag, a tree, or any immoveable object in the distance, as a alignment aide, even though it was placed there inadvertantly, am I cheating?

No how no way. I'm just using everything in my power to assist me in being confident. Not cheating.

« **Reply #62 on:** May 15, 2007, 12:20:52 PM »

Dave

Put down that 68" putter. Slowly now. That's a good boy. Now step back. Slowly please. Good boy. Take a deep breath. That's good. OK. Take a look. See. That horse isn't twitching anymore. It's been beaten to a pulp. And, iot didn't deserve to die.....

« **Reply #63 on:** May 15, 2007, 01:22:14 PM »

Don Shivante

I only went to patronising when avuncular didn't seem to work.

Ricardo

« **Reply #64 on:** May 15, 2007, 01:25:34 PM »

As long as one must mark his ball in some way for identification purposes, and not replace minimally marred balls during play, the ramifications for outlawing this practice would render play not only absurdly slow, but almost impossible.

Are you seriously going to tell me with a straight face there wouldn't be arguments about whether or not someone used a tiny little scuff as an alignment aid? Kresge's caddie thought Sergio wasn't cheating the other day by not taking complete relief. Gee, I bet that won't slow down play at all.

Are you going to legislate that each ball must have a completely white side to alleviate all the problems associated? What happens when you get some kind of blemish on that side?

The ball manufacturers sure will love your rule.

Far better to take the USGA's view that the marking of the line refers to the green. Simpler and cleaner.

Would you be satisfied if they simply inserted "on the field of play" into the rule? If so, why not simply accept the fact that it's covered in a Decision?

This isn't just beating a dead horse, it's now crossed over into all out beastial necrophilia.

« **Reply #65 on:** May 15, 2007, 01:31:05 PM »

Dave,

Just because the decision is under Rule 20, doesn't mean it doesn't have anything to do with Rule 8. The decision is under 20 because it has to do with replacing the ball and if you could align it when replacing it. Since you have to lift (rotate is the same as lifting) the ball to line it up you have to replace it to line it up so that is where the decision belongs.

I know I shouldn't get into this with you because you will never change your mind, but if you are right, do you have to go and penalize any player who replaces his ball with the line in any kind of configuration that might help him, even if he just did it without intent? If a player put his ball down so that the line was parallel to the putter face rather than perpendicular wouldn't that also be a similar violation? What about it if it was exactly 45 degrees and his putter happened to have a V on it that let him line that up?

Where do you draw the line if you'll pardon the pun?

« **Reply #66 on:** May 15, 2007, 01:40:27 PM »

Doesn't seem so clear and easy to me.

What if you get the exact situation John describes, where someone accidentally lines something up, and he then realigns to remove the mark? Sure looks like he's lining something up, no?

What about people that go for the clean white look? That's fiddling with the ball and could be misinterpreted, no?

Does someone going for the clean white look have to notify his playing partners that why he's fiddling with the ball?

« **Reply #67 on:** May 15, 2007, 02:00:29 PM »

Shivas -

First of all, I have no use for a line on my ball and I am responding because you are calling some of my friends cheaters.

We all used to play wound balls. The hardcore among us would do some trick, the details of which elude me, whereby you spin your wound ball in some solution, and see where the ball exhibits symmetry. Then you put a nice mark on it, not to indicate the line for putting, but to indicate the favored axis.

A player has the right to roll the ball along this axis, or as Professor Putt suggests, along the seam.

PS - The more I reflect on this argument, and the more research I do, the more I like it. Pelz says that modern balls have a "balance line" and that you are doing yourself a favor by locating it.

Shivas, are you really willing to tell my friends, who are scrapping for a 78 to qualify for the Maine Am, and Joe Pro, putting for a year's worth of NetJets, that they can't put their ball down in a manner that gives them the most confidence and perhaps the best chance?

« **Reply #68 on:** May 15, 2007, 02:04:44 PM »

Quote from: Shivas Schmidt on May 15, 2007, 01:39:11 PM

We've all seen it. We know it. It's obvious.

Yes sir Justice Stewart.

Guy walks up, stands behind his line looking intently at the putt, moves forward, puts the ball down quickly, removes the mark and stands up. The line on the ball is directly on the line of putt. Did it happen by chance or is he just real quick at doing it? Do I have to go quiz him about it? Do I have to stop him and tell him to move the ball into another orientation?

As for the player who is "bumping" his ball, if I get a report of that, I'll do one of two things:

1) Watch him from where I can see what is going on. If I see him, I'm going to go up and say, "Sir, you appear to have not gotten your ball back in the correct spot, please correct it."

2) Go directly to him and say that we've had a report that he might not have properly replaced his ball on hole #X. If he says he is sure that he did (which he will), I'll say ok and just say that he might want to be careful in the future.

I doubt he'll do it again for a while.

I was taught a long time ago that we are not out there to get into angry confrontations with players. If a player is cheating, he knows it and he is the one who has to look himself in the mirror the next morning. Sooner or later he will get caught and the punishment, especially in terms of his relations with his peers, will be much greater than the crime.

« **Reply #69 on:** May 15, 2007, 03:10:58 PM »

Shivas -

Answer the argument - I'm telling you that the mark is there to indicate an axis of symmetry. I am lining up the line not to indicate the "line for putting" but so that when I strike the putt my ball will be rolling along an axis of my choosing.

« **Reply #70 on:** May 15, 2007, 03:58:02 PM »

I'd like to make the point that when get a putting lesson or pro they always tell you to use the "cheater line".

When the British Senior Open was at RCD one of the pros staying in my grannys house (Jim someone, finished in the top 10 of the US Senior order of Merit twice) and he gave me a handful of Pro V's, they had not came out here then. Either him or Tony Jacklin told me that if you hit it on the "Cheater Line" you get 15 yardes more carry. I thought he was having me on until TopFlite and Slagenger bald eagles started advertising the same thing. Did early Pro V's have these 'Hot-Spots'?

« **Reply #71 on:** May 15, 2007, 05:47:32 PM »

I'll play, just for kicks...

They could outlaw standing behind the ball when replacing it on the green -- eliminates the problem and no interpretation issue, no?

More seriously, I'd agree that it's time for a shot clock, and enforce it. I don't care what you do to prepare for a shot, as long as it takes less than X seconds. And no extra time for "harder" shots.

« **Reply #72 on:** May 15, 2007, 06:03:30 PM »

Ken

LOVE the idea about a shot clock, particularly if it's a nice loud NBA style buzzer that just might go off during one's backswing. That'll get those prima donnas movin".......

« **Reply #73 on:** May 15, 2007, 06:18:55 PM »

Quote from: Shivas Schmidt on May 15, 2007, 05:17:38 PM

Jim and Matthew, first of all, you are completely missing the point. This is about principle, not utility.

But, Jim, since you mentioned these stats, I figured out that the mid-point between the 1990 stats and the 2006 stats decreased from 29.58 putts per round to 29.075 putts per round. I was nice and rounded down and called it 0.5 putts per round of improvement over this time.

So I asked myself: what is half a stroke per round better putting worth to these guys? I then went to the money list and found the first middle-of-the-pack tour guy who had a scoring average of 71.00 last year. 71.00 was a random number I picked to represent an average Tour player. Then I found the first guy with a scoring average of 71.50 last year.

The two guys turned out to be Harrison Fraser and DA Points.

Fraser finished 98th, made $889,022 last year and kept his card.

Points finished #162, made $405,984 last year and lost his card.

So Jim, is it your position that the cheater line makes no difference to these guys?

Your statistics are meaningless. Does Fraser use it and Points doesn't. If not, why not if it so wonderful an aid? There is no reason that every player can't use it so it has no incremental value.

No one is being cheated because it is legal and the ruling bodies have said it is and anyone who wants to do it can do it. There isn't even any cost to do it so, unlike some arguments against rangefinders, there is nobody who has an advantage.

You've wasted more time on this than Sean O'Hare did lining all his putts at the Players.

« **Reply #74 on:** May 15, 2007, 08:42:47 PM »

Quote from: Sean Arble on May 15, 2007, 11:35:22 AM

Quote from: Shivas Schmidt on May 15, 2007, 11:17:28 AM
Well, I am right... Besides, I picked up a handful of converts along the way....so it's not everyone -- just the cheater-line users.

Sean, yes, I agree with you. The USGA has ruled in a clear decision that leaves no room for interpretation -- with spect to Trademarks.

Did they rule with respect to anything else? No.

So here we have a general rule against placing marks to indicate a line for putting. Then we have an exception to the general rule for trademarks placed to indicate a line for putting.

What we don't have is a Decision saying that you can align anything on the ball. This is clear to you, no?

Shivas

No, it isn't clear to me if a hand placed cheater line is legal, but then it isn't clear to me that it is not legal. Armed with this knowledge or lack of, I would not dream of trying to call a penalty on a guy for using the "cheater line".

We all have our causes, yours, or at least one of yours is the "cheater line". I could even be persuaded to take your view on the subject if only because I believe the more simplified the rules, the better. But it is beyond the pale to call a guy a cheater when we have just stated that we don't know if it is cheating because there has been no decision (that I am aware of) on the matter. I say, send in the case to the USGA and get a ruling.

Ciao

Shivas - First, shame on you for bringing my friend DA into this equation. Second, I'm very satisfied with my new law firms' trademark (a golf ball with a line drawn on it). Ironically enough, Titleist makes one for me without any additional firm cost.

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