[Mike Hendren]

I would eliminate the exagerated bent grass collars.  They are artificial and add nothing to the excellent ground game options presented by the course.  I found them to be a gimmick rather than a strategic design element.  

Mike

[Mike_Cirba]

The 12th is easily my favorite hole at RC.  

You toucha that green, I breaka you face.

Actually, I won't, but I suspect the Emperor might.  

[TEPaul]

"The 12th is easily my favorite hole at RC."

MikeC:

That's because you can smell a rat when one is about and obviously you don't mind the scent. The concern with that concept pre-construction was what other golfers who don't have your highly refined olfactory senses may think or not smell.  

I wonder what David Moriarty thinks of the hole? Do you think he's been able to figure out yet where the green is? And yes, I think I am aware that he considers it his home course. I wonder what he thinks the "involvement", "advice" or "significance" of every single trivial detail of that golf course or that golf hole is or means?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

I know that David loves that hole too, but you might want to document your "advisory" involvement on the 12th hole right now and send it off to Ancestry.com so that his children's children can find it some day and give you your due props!  

[TEPaul]

"Tom,

I know that David loves that hole too, but you might want to document your "advisory" involvement on the 12th hole right now and send it off to Ancestry.com so that his children's children can find it some day and give you your due props!    

Are you kidding?

If I did that it would mean his children's children could potentially lose the opportunity in about eighty years to carry on a 100 page thread on here over practically nothing!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Then I'll write about your involvement, and post it in some obscure, arcane periodical and 100 years from now they can debate whether this Cirba guy was a credible witness, whether I'd ever been onsite at Rustic Canyon, how I knew you and Gil and their late grandpop David, and whether I ever dallied with dainty Dev Emmett (despite our age difference).  

[TEPaul]

By the way MikeC, I've been experimenting with using humor on here with very minimal support from "smiley faces". When I used to use them prevalently not that many realized there was humor about anyway so I don't know what to expect with my recent mnimalism.

How do you think I'm doing so far?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Yes, I think the "Wink" sort of lost its effect when it followed words like "buffoon", "idiot", and "liar".  

Of course, a big smile face at the end of each post is sometimes indicative of at least good intentions and constructive criticism.  

[TEPaul]

Don't write a damn thing for posterity. Didn't you know the whole idea is to glorify Gil Hanse, Jim Wagner and Geoff Shackelford and the crew? After-all they were the ones who were out there laying out, designing and building the golf course every day for months and months on end. But maybe David Moriarty doesn't understand or appreciate that either.

So I'll just say here and now that my "advice" or 'involvement" or whatever it was lasted about a day or two out there and I'm telling everyone it wasn't "significant". I've never even seen the golf course built for Goodness Sakes. I was there once and completely before it went into construction. Although I will say that the course was getting its centerlines mowed down for the first time and clearly that was an exciting time for GeoffShac and Jim Wagner---eg to see at least some semblance of a golf course begin to take form.

But that probably won't stop somebody eighty years from now implying I don't know what I'm talking about and I must be discounting or minimizing the "advise", "involvement" or the "significance" of it.

I don't believe I ever used a wink or smiley along with buffoon, idiot or liar. Those things are very serious business. What else are you going to call a buffoon and idiot and liar who puts words in your mouth that you never remotely said?  

Perhaps in the future I should just say:

"Oh dear David, what could it be---could it be extreme carpal tunnel syndrome that seems to make you create the same extended series of typos about ten times in a row?"

[Mike_Cirba]

Don't write a damn thing for posterity. Didn't you know the whole idea is to glorify Gil Hanse, Jim Wagner and Geoff Shackelford and the crew? After-all they were the ones who were out there laying out, designing and building the golf course every day for months and months on end. But maybe David Moriarty doesn't understand or appreciate that either.

So I'll just say here and now that my "advice" or 'involvement" or whatever it was lasted about a day or two out there and I'm telling everyone it wasn't "significant". I've never even seen the golf course built for Goodness Sakes. I was there once and completely before it went into construction. Although I will say that the course was getting its centerlines mowed down for the first time and clearly that was an exciting time for GeoffShac and Jim Wagner---eg to see at least some semblance of a golf course begin to take form.

But that probably won't stop somebody eighty years from now implying I don't know what I'm talking about and I must be discounting or minimizing the "advise", "involvement" or the "significance" of it.

I don't believe I ever used a wink or smiley along with buffoon, idiot or liar. Those things are very serious business.  

Tom,

Yeah, yeah...suuuuurrrrrreeeee....

I bet that's what CB Macdonald said about Merion too.  

Don't be so humble.  

[Mike_Cirba]

p.s.

Wait until you see the claims I make at your funeral!    

[TEPaul]

Alan Wilson to Piper:

"Did you and Charlie come to blows when you visited him at NLGA?"

Piper to Wilson:

"No, we didn't come to blows but I've learned to not fool with him. He did call everyone damn idiots and told me they could all go to Hell."

MikeC:

I'm serious, that really was in two of the agronomy letters. I'll show them to you. Seriously. Of course we are still looking into that incident at Shinnecock in the bar when C.B. punched out some complainer to within an inch of his life.

Apparently that prompted Shinnecock to suspend Charley but in response Charley stole their flagpole and their chef and immediately hauled both over to NGLA. This is the truth. Man, those were the days, weren't they? I guess I was just born too damned late.

On the other hand Mike, this kind of thing sort of cuts both ways. When I spent a while down at that auto body shop in Southampton that has so much of the NGLA material, Swede was telling me about some of the characters he used to caddie for at NGLA. One guy who Swede said was one of the greatest guys he ever knew was beginning to sound suspiciously familiar to me. So I said what was that guy's name Swede? He told me and sure enough it was the same guy I was thinking of. I told Swede that guy was about the biggest son-of-a-bitch I ever ran into in my entire life. He could put W.C.Fields to shame in the way he treated little kids.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

He was probably just pissed because he didn't get design credit for Merion, and I'm sure it affected his cheerful, ebullient, exuberant countenance almost immediately, turning him into the sour, dark-spirited, angry, and sullen man he became later in life.

Thankfully, the record has been recently corrected.  

(see, no smilies or winks...think anyone will get it?)

[rjsimper]

Can we please not let this nonsense infiltrate what is otherwise an interesting thread/question?

[Mike_Cirba]

Can we please not let this nonsense infiltrate what is otherwise an interesting thread/question?

Ryan,

Wow, I never thought that I'd be asked to leave a John Kavanaugh initiated thread for being off topic from architecture.  

Sakes alive, I guess.  What's next, cats sleeping with dogs?  John K. coauthoring a book with Shack?  Full scale Armageddon?  

p.s....at the risk of sounding terribly arrogant and a pompous buffoon, I think virtually every suggestion I've heard so far has been shite.  

[Mike_Cirba]

If you want another good suggestion, get rid of all that excrement that was put between tee and green on the 4th hole and "restore" it to it's original unadorned beautiful simplicity/complexity.

The original;

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

Ryan's right. We really should stop being so nonsensical, boorish, rude and pathetic and get back to the gloriously humorless topic of golf couse architecture.

[Mike_Cirba]

MikeC:

Ryan's right. We really should stop being so nonsensical, boorish, rude and pathetic and get back to the gloriously humorless topic of golf couse architecture.

Tom,

Be easy on Ryan.  He had to play golf with Kavanaugh this past week and I'm sure that can't be easy on the psyche.  

[TEPaul]

Mike:

Try not to do such a boorish and pathetic job of architectural comparison. You showed the original, now where is the version with all the excrement between the tee and the green?

Furthermore, I want details. How does one play the excrement? Do you play it as the ball lies or do you get free relief from it?

[rjsimper]

Mike,
I go back and fourth...erm...forth on the 4th hole.  On one hand, I greatly prefer the new green to the old one...but on the other hand I think that it would be a more exciting hole if we were able to see the ball landing and rolling up to a back pin.

MikeC/TomP - When I find a topic that I can speak with any authority on, I don't like to see it turn into debating the merits of the 10th at Merion...a topic on which I can provide no valuable insight.  Forgive me for interjecting into your fun in order to change the course of the discussion, and I will in kind forgive you for interjecting into the thread's original intent.    I believe I know a thread or two somewhere down the list where you can carry on with your tom-foolery and be welcomed for doing so

[TEPaul]

Ryan:

Would you mind doing yourself and everyone else on this thread a favor and stop making no-count posts with smiley faces in them, particularly now that you have found a thread on which you can speak with authority on?

So, speak with authority and STENTORIANLY SO!!

[rjsimper]

There are many no-count post authors far more skilled than I am in the art.  I will leave the bulk of that noble work to them.

And I shall continue to use the smiley faces wherever I see fit.  Should you have an objection to their appearance, perhaps the best course of action would be to address the issue with Ran.

If you build it, they will come.

 

[ed_getka]

#12 green is probably the last change I would make to Rustic. Shots can be played onto that green and you don't have to be Tiger Woods to do it.

I would change the fairway on #14 so that mortals have somewhere to land out to the right. That forced carry is a bit much. I know they didn't have a choice because of the wash, but after two floods and the landscape being reshaped by mother nature, it would have been easy to shorten the carry by 10 to 20 yards out to the right. I say out to the right, because if you bail out over there you have a 200 yard approach shot still, so it is not like it would make the hole that much easier.

I would love to hear from Geoff or Gil if #15 green was already there like that. I find that very difficult to believe. The upper tier I like as it curves around off to the right, but the lower tier is just so straight across, that it is hard to imagine it being natural.

#7 I would just recreate a raised up version of the original green was one of the more outstanding greens on the course IMO.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,
I go back and fourth...erm...forth on the 4th hole.  On one hand, I greatly prefer the new green to the old one...but on the other hand I think that it would be a more exciting hole if we were able to see the ball landing and rolling up to a back pin.

MikeC/TomP - When I find a topic that I can speak with any authority on, I don't like to see it turn into debating the merits of the 10th at Merion...a topic on which I can provide no valuable insight.  Forgive me for interjecting into your fun in order to change the course of the discussion, and I will in kind forgive you for interjecting into the thread's original intent.    I believe I know a thread or two somewhere down the list where you can carry on with your tom-foolery and be welcomed for doing so

Ryan,

I loved the fact that the original hole looked perfectly docile, allowed you to almost putt from the tee if you chose to, seemed perfectly visibly obvious, and went in for none of the eye-candy that we seem to demand in all of our golf holes.

The new one fails all those standards.  

As far as taking this thread off-topic, a very wise man once said to me;

"I can tolerate your tomfoolery, but if you don't knock off the jackassageness, I will cut off your nuts and feed them to my ferret Beverly."

If you tell that to Tom Paul, it might work.  He's the instigator around here.  

[Pete Lavallee]

#I would change the fairway on #14 so that mortals have somewhere to land out to the right. That forced carry is a bit much.

If you move up to the white tees you will not have to carry the wash. Please consult the ongoing thread about Joe Sixpack if you are unsure of the teeing option you should be selecting for your playing ability.

However, from the blue tee it must be less than 200 yards to make the carry to where the drop area is. The distance in from there is in the 250 range; however I know you could run a 3 wood onto the front of the green from there.

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