I guess another question Tim, is, what do you do on the tee of driving holes when there are multiple bunkers out there with no confirmed yardage to, or to carry, any of them?

Pat Mucci -

I was just reading about a former student who was maimed in Iraq. He is twenty-two years old. Would you consider him a member of the "me generation?"

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on January 02, 2007, 03:12:23 PM

Quote from: Tim Gavrich on January 01, 2007, 05:22:06 PM

GAVRICH: Did I demand to know the hole locations?  No, no I didn't.  I wondered aloud what was so unreasonable about indicating whether the pin was in the front, middle, or rear third of the green, a question that still goes unanswered.[/b]


Because it diminishes the inherent challenge of the game.


How is it dumb luck ?
Do you stand in the fairway having no idea as to where the green is ?

GAVRICH: It's dumb luck because you have no way of knowing whether the pin is in the front or back of the green.  Didn't you give that illustrious list of golf holes as an example of times when you have no idea whether the pin is in the front or back?

So what, then hit it to the center of the green and you won't be far off.

Previously I asked you,
"What's wrong with architecture creating an unplanned situation ?  A long putt, chip or pitch."

You never answered this question



GAVRICH: Is the "YOU" generation one that rejects technology purely for the sake of preserving your idea of the pure form of things?

Not at all.  Only when that technology obsoletes the architecture meant to interface with the golfer's play.

Well since your view on the game is as it was before modern technology, I assume you play exclusively with hickory clubs and gutta percha balls, right?  

That's not my view of the game, that's your intended presumption with respect to my view of the game.

And by the way, I am not saying that "everything should be laid out for the player.

Yes, you were.
You were complaining that you didn't like it when you couldn't determine exactly where the pin was.

But, let's address it from another perspective, that of the superintendent.

Just let one of those special, bright, whimpy flags be off the mark for some reason and the howling from your ilk is deafening.

Why burden the superintendent with the additional work of putting markers on the flagsticks that precisely indicate where the hole is cut ?

GAVRICH: I had no idea that it would be so burdensome to do this.  

It is.

Do you mean to tell me that with their budgets, clubs such as NGLA, Pine Valley, Augusta, and all the other prestigious venues you have exemplified cannot afford staff to oversee the marking of the flags each morning ?

First, why would they want to ?

Second, who would do the actually locating of the flags ?
The President of the club.  The Green Chairman, the Superintendent, or, a minimum wage worker ?

Do you think he really cares that some spoiled golfers need to know, exactly where the hole is located.  Do you think that on a green 40 yards deep that he might be off in his estimate as to what third of the green the hole is cut ?
That he might make a mistake ?

So, he puts in a flag that says "up front" when it's really more toward the "middle".  The complaining that follows is shrill and absurd.

And, since most greens are pretty visible and 24-30 yards in depth, what's the longest putt you can have if you hit to the middle of the green, 20 or 30 feet ?

How spoiled can you get ?

GAVRICH: The passage with which I began this discussion implies that the 14th at HC is an exception, whereby the player, even with Muccian powers of depth-perception and judgement, is not able to judge the distance.

How are you not able to judge the distance ?
# 14 is a par 3.
The scorecard and the yardage plate tell you the exact yardage to the center of the green.  [size=4x]It's 200 yards.[/size]

How much more information do you need  ?

Get up and hit the ball, or, heaven forbid, allow your handicap to reflect your inability to judge the architectural signals presented on the playing field

I am just wondering why it is praise-worthy for an architect to make a hole's primary defense the fact that one can only hit the proper shot by dumb luck.

Dumb Luck ?
The scorecard and the yardage plate on the tee tell you it's 200 yards.

Maybe you're confusing "dumb luck" with being "DUMB" or spoiled or both.

If you can see the flagstick, use your sensory perception, your understanding or architecture and your mental and physical skills, and if you can't see the flagstick, use those same skills and decide where best to hit the ball, taking your chances on the results.

That's part of the rub of the green

#14 at Hidden Creek in this context is like 1000 holes you have seen otherwise. How about every hole in the world with a fronting bunker with a lip that obscures the green surface. I think Ran was trying to highlight a beneficial feature of C&C's work.

Quote from: Tim Gavrich on January 02, 2007, 04:17:33 PM

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on January 02, 2007, 03:12:23 PM

Quote from: Tim Gavrich on January 01, 2007, 05:22:06 PM

GAVRICH: Did I demand to know the hole locations?  No, no I didn't.  I wondered aloud what was so unreasonable about indicating whether the pin was in the front, middle, or rear third of the green, a question that still goes unanswered.[/b]


Because it diminishes the inherent challenge of the game.


How is it dumb luck ?
Do you stand in the fairway having no idea as to where the green is ?

GAVRICH: It's dumb luck because you have no way of knowing whether the pin is in the front or back of the green.  Didn't you give that illustrious list of golf holes as an example of times when you have no idea whether the pin is in the front or back?

So what, then hit it to the center of the green and you won't be far off.

Previously I asked you,
"What's wrong with architecture creating an unplanned situation ?  A long putt, chip or pitch."

You never answered this question

TG: I don't know what you mean by "unplanned."  If an unplanned situation is one that arises even though the golfer has done all he/she can to hit a good shot, I am not crazy about it.  The game is hard enough as it is; we should ideally be punished for bad shots, and rewarded for good ones.



GAVRICH: Is the "YOU" generation one that rejects technology purely for the sake of preserving your idea of the pure form of things?

Not at all.  Only when that technology obsoletes the architecture meant to interface with the golfer's play.

TG: Do you not believe that the Titleist Pro V1 balls and TaylorMade driver (or equivalent) that you use has done the same thing?


Well since your view on the game is as it was before modern technology, I assume you play exclusively with hickory clubs and gutta percha balls, right?  

That's not my view of the game, that's your intended presumption with respect to my view of the game.

And by the way, I am not saying that "everything should be laid out for the player.

Yes, you were.
You were complaining that you didn't like it when you couldn't determine exactly where the pin was.

TG: WRONG.  I'm asking to know which THIRD (1/3) of the green (depthwise) on which the pin is situated.  Nothing more, nothing less.

But, let's address it from another perspective, that of the superintendent.

Just let one of those special, bright, whimpy flags be off the mark for some reason and the howling from your ilk is deafening.

Why burden the superintendent with the additional work of putting markers on the flagsticks that precisely indicate where the hole is cut ?

GAVRICH: I had no idea that it would be so burdensome to do this.  

It is.

Do you mean to tell me that with their budgets, clubs such as NGLA, Pine Valley, Augusta, and all the other prestigious venues you have exemplified cannot afford staff to oversee the marking of the flags each morning ?

First, why would they want to ?

Second, who would do the actually locating of the flags ?
The President of the club.  The Green Chairman, the Superintendent, or, a minimum wage worker ?

TG:  Who locates them currently?  It's not difficult (or expensive) to have a few extra red, white, and blue flags so that whoever lays them out can determine which third of the green the hole will be located.

Do you think he really cares that some spoiled golfers need to know, exactly where the hole is located.  Do you think that on a green 40 yards deep that he might be off in his estimate as to what third of the green the hole is cut ?

TG: At least he will have tried.  If he's getting paid the big bucks to take care of the course, his powers of estimation should be pretty good.

That he might make a mistake ?

TG: If he puts a blue flag where a white flag is warranted, it would be better than the then-current situation.

So, he puts in a flag that says "up front" when it's really more toward the "middle".  The complaining that follows is shrill and absurd.

TG: So the players can ignore it anyway, relying on their own powers of judgement.  That way, everyone is (more) satisfied.

And, since most greens are pretty visible and 24-30 yards in depth, what's the longest putt you can have if you hit to the middle of the green, 20 or 30 feet ?

How spoiled can you get ?

TG: Why the abusive rhetoric?  I'm trying to argue my own case.  I may be younger and less wise, but I'm no moron, and I have played a lot of golf in my time.

GAVRICH: The passage with which I began this discussion implies that the 14th at HC is an exception, whereby the player, even with Muccian powers of depth-perception and judgement, is not able to judge the distance.

How are you not able to judge the distance ?
# 14 is a par 3.
The scorecard and the yardage plate tell you the exact yardage to the center of the green.  [size=4x]It's 200 yards.[/size]

TG: But as the review suggests, we can't tell where the pin is in relation to the center.  Knowing what third of the green (a region 17 yards deep, as opposed to 51) on which the pin is located would make the hole more enjoyable, given that the player has a better (not perfect) idea of where the hole is.

How much more information do you need  ?

Get up and hit the ball, or, heaven forbid, allow your handicap to reflect your inability to judge the architectural signals presented on the playing field

TG: So you're saying that the lower one's handicap, the lower their ability to "judge the architectural signals?"  What is your handicap, then?  50?  I doubt that's what you meant.


I am just wondering why it is praise-worthy for an architect to make a hole's primary defense the fact that one can only hit the proper shot by dumb luck.

Dumb Luck ?
The scorecard and the yardage plate on the tee tell you it's 200 yards.

TG: That's great, but the hole location could make the hole play from 180 to 220 yards.  And I would be unhappy knowing which the distance was, because (let us imagine, for the sake of argument) it is not possible to tell.

Maybe you're confusing "dumb luck" with being "DUMB" or spoiled or both.

TG: I hope not.

If you can see the flagstick, use your sensory perception, your understanding or architecture and your mental and physical skills,

TG: But if the whereabouts (depthwise) of the flag cannot be discerned, this doesn't do any good.

and if you can't see the flagstick, use those same skills and decide where best to hit the ball, taking your chances on the results.

TG: That is acceptable.  It is why I love the 3rd at Yale.  The flagpole is sufficient indication of where the (small) green is.  If there were no flagpole, I would say differently.

That's part of the rub of the green

TG: Fine.  I just don't see the big deal in breaking a green down depthwise into thirds, in the name of speeding up play and giving players a slightly more sporting chance at success.  Isn't that what makes golf fun and intriguing, the prospect of success on a given hole?    The game is quite hard enough; I don't believe that the thirds suggestion is nearly as detrimental as you make it out to be.

I just finished reading this entire thread and enjoyed it thoroughly, but my question is, What are you playing in Tim, that does not have pin sheets? In a  casual round of golf or club championship or gambling game, the advantage goes to the golfer (veteran, rookie, high or low handicapper) that has the best vision, the smarts to do what Patrick was saying and put it in the middle of the green and move on. I,for one, hit about three times as many shots that end up close because I thought the pin was somewhere different as I do hitting perfect shots. If you hit a perfect shot, you will be rewarded. Vision is to golf as height is to basketball and speed is to football. They are advantages that help determine who is better.