News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Patrick_Mucci

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #525 on: December 11, 2006, 10:34:13 PM »
After looking at the photo of the old and new 10th greens, and the 1st green and fairway in the photo on page 68, circa 1924, and the photo of the new 10th green and new 1st fairway on page 72, circa 1930, I have to ask the question.

Why did Merion make this change ?

While safety may be the immediate response, one also has to wonder why the 1st tee and fairway were moved  ?

Was it due to the creation of a new entrance road from Ardmore Avenue, rather than some "on course" architectural reasons ?

And, why not leave a dual green on # 10 ?

Would the replacement of the 40 or so yards lost on # 11 make it a better hole ?

Studying the pictures on pages 68 and 72 raises some interesting questions.

Wayne & TE,

Do you know why the changes to # 1, 10, and 11 were made ?

I suspect that non-golf reasons may have been the driving force, namely, the new driveway.  

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #526 on: December 11, 2006, 10:36:11 PM »
Tom MacWood,

In all seriousness, I think the discussion/debate has been very informative, irrespective of one's belief's regarding the conclusions.

DMoriarty

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #527 on: December 12, 2006, 03:16:59 AM »
JES,

I appreciate that you obviously put some thought into your post.  While I agree with some of what you said, and do not think we are as far apart as it may sometimes seem, I do still want to try to clarify a few points.

I agree that Mssrs. Morrison and Paul are "passionate" about Merion.  But their "passion" has obviously gotten in the way with their ability to accurately analyze and convey the facts.  Productive historical research requires that the researcher maintain a critical distance from the material or else the entire process will become useless.  Just look at their inability to accept that CBM had any influence after the NGLA visit, and look at how they have even downplayed this.  Just look how rude, obnoxious, and defensive they become when anyone challenges their views, even if with the most objective of facts.

Quote
You start a thread that in essence throws mud in the face of the Merion membership. And you do so as speculation hoping to start a discussion.

With all due respect, this is not all the case.  Far from intending to "throw[] mud in the face of the Merion membership," I started this thread because I found an interesting article which I think sheds a tiny bit more light on the proud history of Merion.  I hope I have not offended the Merion membership in the process, as this was not my intention.  I have intentionally said a few things to Mr. Morrison, but nothing uncalled for by his boorish behavior.

 
Quote
You may not see it this way, but when you speculate that CBM was more involved in the earliest years of Merion East than he is or was given credit for you are insulting Merion's membership. Merion, more than any club I am familiar with, embraces it's history and traditions (and justifiably so) to the fullest degree.

No, I certainly do not see it that way.  I think too highly of the Merion and its membership (past and present) to believe that they would want to misrepresent their history.  After all, it was largely Wilson and Lesley who acknowledged that MacDonald was involved, and we should not lightly substitute our own evaluation and judgment in place of theirs.

Quote
You make these accusations because you have brief footnotes recognizing his advisory role and written snippets of hole characteristics that resemble some of what he (CBM) was doing. You need more than that.

If you have not done so already, you may want to look at these sources in the contexts in which they appear.  If nothing else, I suspect that after so doing you will understand that it is inaccurate to lump all of these acknowledgements together as footnotes or snippets.  

Quote
I just don't think you can take the "evidence" you and TM have put forward to mean CBM deserves more credit than has been granted.

I agree. And surely there is not enough evidence to justify taking away credit given to him by the likes of Wilson and Lesley.  It is not me who is trying to revise Merion's proud history; it is Mr. Morrison and his cohorts.  

Quote
When you take TEP's and Wayne's words about not giving credit to CBM for anything on the ground at Merion as "sweeping his influence under the rug" I can see why.  I can confidently say that what they mean is that until something specific is produced how could you possibly assign anything to him.

I too believe that they mean what you describe.  But this demand for additional corroborating evidence is a wild goose chase.  

First, we already have solid evidence that CBM was involved— The words of honorable men who were perfectly situated to assess and acknowledge CBM’s influence and involvement.   Yet the other side of the table demands that we do not trust these men’s words unless the words come appended with a thorough explanation of exactly what was meant by each word, and a laundry list of everything to which each word applies.  

For example, when Lesley, the chairman Merion’s green committee credits CBM with advising on the layout in a major article,  they demand evidence of everything CBM advised and whether the advice was followed.   And if no such evidence exists?  They deny that CBM advised on the laying out of the course. Nonsense!  We do not have enough information to second guess Lesley, much less a compelling reason:  
-We have no reason to doubt Lesley’s knowledge, judgment, and veracity;
-Lesley was in a much better position to determine if CBM deserved credit for advising on the layout of the course;
-We only have a miniscule fragment of the information Lesley had when wrote his article; and
-MacDonald’s involvement would not likely have produced any of the physical evidence they claim to seek.  

Would we doubt Mr. Keiser if he publicly credited an architect for advising on the layout of one of his courses?   Would we insist that he back up his claim by producing a laundry list out the architect’s entire contribution to the layout?  And what if, through the passage of time and unavailability of the parties involved, the evidence was no longer readily available?  Would we conclude that the architect really was not really much of an advisor at all?   I would not.  But if Mr. Morrison and Mr. Paul wished to remain consistent, they would.

 
Quote
You must admit that the terms "advisor" and "approval of the grounds" are pretty vague to assign credit to.

Given the reputations of the authors and the contexts in which they were writing, I beg to differ.  
« Last Edit: December 12, 2006, 03:22:57 AM by DMoriarty »

DMoriarty

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #528 on: December 12, 2006, 03:39:26 AM »
OK, Moriarty, let's start with the "above" and then talk about what we know to be true about Macdonald and Merion.

We know that well-respected men who were ideally situated to make such a judgment concluded that CBM was involved.  We have no compelling reason to doubt them, and no possible hope of reconstructing all the facts so that we can accurately second-guess them.  

Quote
If you think they all said Macdonald was involved in Merion what was it about the routing, design or construction of Merion that any of them actually said he was INVOLVED in??

Why don't you just answer that?? Go ahead, tell us anything at all he was INVOLVED in with the routing, design or construction. Come on give us SOMETHING----ANYTHING!!

We will never likely know the details of his involvement.  But the people who had all the necessary information concluded that he was involved, had an influence, was an advisor, was a mentor.

What evidence do you have that they were mistaken?  
What evidence compels you to second guess them?  To substitute your judgment for theirs?
Surely you realize that they were better situated to make that judgment, dont you?  

They were there.  
They had much better information on which to assign or deny credit than you.  

Absent compelling evidence that they lied, exaggerated, or were mistaken, you have absolutely no basis for tossing aside their conclusions in favor or your own.  

It is your burden, not theirs.
___________________________

Patrick, I'd love to comment but I cannot find the book.  
« Last Edit: December 12, 2006, 03:43:17 AM by DMoriarty »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #529 on: December 12, 2006, 08:16:17 AM »
David,

With all due respect, I think you have let your rage at Wayne and Tom cloud your objectivity in the words they write. If you have some prior experience of them trying to intentionally cut CBM out of Merion's history books you need to get over it, or at least deal with it in a different manner.

These quotes you have from all of those luminaries could very easily reference the NGLA visit to CBM by Wilson and a friendly on-site visit during the construction phase.

Trying to lend CBM more credit based on what you have is the dangerous part of that GENEROSITY OF SPIRIT you spoke of. I think if you read the comments written way back when, and consider my opinion that it was them demonstrating a certain GENEROSIT OF SPIRIT when they wrote it you might see my perspective on this.

As it is, you have no room to critique their (WM and TEP) objective research abilities because you do not come across as objective in this either. That is the agenda I spoke of pretty early in this thread.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #530 on: December 12, 2006, 08:30:58 AM »
David,

Let me try this again.   The question has been directed to you to tell us what pieces of the "puzzle" have been missed all these years, and you have the floor sir.  

David,

I'm not going to battle you to have the last word here.  Instead, let me just clarify a point and then you can have the floor unimpeded.  

I've never said that Macdonald wasn't an influence on Wilson; that would be preposterous when Wilson himself told of visiting Charlie prior to his trip overseas, and it's also recorded that Macdonald gave him a tour of NGLA, discussed architecture into the night, and advised on his trip overseas.

I also never said that Macdonald was brought on to "hype" the course.   Macdonald's role, and Merion's immediate acknowledgement of Macdonald's role, were helpful in getting the project off on the right track, and Merion gratefully acknowledged that influence in a number of ways, although always in very general terms (which I believe is rather telling).

However, once Wilson returned after his 8 months stay studying numerous courses and holes overseas, we know of a single documented site visit by Macdonald, the nature, duration, and purpose of which is unknown.  

We also know that in a history book years later, the author quoted WIlson as saying that Macdonald was helpful in "problems presented in laying out A course", which may have referred to construction, agronomy, strategy, routing, or any and/or all of the above.   We don't know what that means honestly, David, do we?

We also know that 2 of the 18 holes at Merion had nicknames familiar as famous holes.   We also know that Travis said the 15th green was copied after the Eden green.  But, do we know where Wilson would have been inspired to do his own spin on those features; the two days with Macdonald or the eight months overseas studying and sketching??

So, you have the floor, but I'd like for you to tell us specifically what you think Macdonald did for Merion after the time that Wilson returned from overseas.

If we are missing some huge piece of the "puzzle" that hasn't been properly acknowledged and documented by historians and accounts of the time, and Wilson's letters, and Merion's archives, and Charles Macdonalds files, and Macdonald and Whigham's articles, then please lay out specifically what we missed.

Let's hear it.   The floor is yours, you have the last word in this matter, and I'll only rebut if you ask me to.

What did Macdonald do specifically after Wilson's return from Great Britain, and what was the great unacknowledged contribution that he made to the design, layout, features, and construction of the Merion East golf course?

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #531 on: December 12, 2006, 08:38:40 AM »
Is there any chance of putting a gun to the head of this thread? Is there anything constructive coming from it?

Really, I can't even bare to read one page of it, let alone one post. Tell me is this thread worth it? You guys are taking one little lark of a fantastic golf course and ripping it's heart and soul out just to prove a point of I'm right/your wrong......

All's I ask, is this post constructive or destructive? (I don't know because I refuse to read any of it)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #532 on: December 12, 2006, 08:52:34 AM »
Tommy,

Can I ask to whom you are asking?

My personal opinion is that if someone is going to post a hypothesis on here and drag it out for 20 pages it should be up to them to end it with one of two things...evidence to prove their position, or an acknowledgement that they have no evidence and will go back to work.

Just out of curiosity, if you haven't read any why do you want it to stop?

T_MacWood

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #533 on: December 12, 2006, 09:01:28 AM »
Tommy
There is absolutely nothing constructive coming out at this point. After twenty pages I'm not sure much of anything new has been uncovered. No one knows precisely what Wilson contributed to the original design; no one knows precisely what M&W contributed to the original design. Thats why until someone uncovers new information this debate will continue to be a complete stalemate.

More research, less speculation.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #534 on: December 12, 2006, 09:02:29 AM »
Tommy,

Here's how I'd sum it up;

David starts a thread which implies that Macdonald was much more involved in the original course at Merion East than has been reported and acknowledged, because of the existence of a template hole or two.

Several of us question his assertion and implied conclusion, given Wilson's much lengthier visit overseas where he would have actually SEEN those famed template holes.

Tom MacWood seems to be siding with David.

This goes on for approximately 18 pages.

Tom MacWood now seems to be saying that we can't reach any conclusions about Macdonald's involvement, and if he did anything there Wilson probably didn't like it anyway and erased it quickly.

We're now at the point, finally, of asking David (pinning him down forcibly) to cite exactly what Macdonald contributed to the design and construction that should cause us to reconsider the historical record.

I'm excited to hear his answer.  Then, we should blow up this thread.  ;D

T_MacWood

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #535 on: December 12, 2006, 09:07:35 AM »
Mike
I'm saying the committee, headed by Wilson, advised by M&W, designed the golf course. Beyond that, at this point, we don't know anything about specifics.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #536 on: December 12, 2006, 09:21:22 AM »
Mike
I'm saying the committee, headed by Wilson, advised by M&W, designed the golf course. Beyond that, at this point, we don't know anything about specifics.

But Tom...we DON'T know that M&W's "advisement" consisted of ANYTHING related to designing the golf course, or the specific holes or features.   Not a single thing.

The fact that there is almost nothing that resembles Macdonald's work pre and post Merion indicates to me that his role was something like "Executive Producer", with very little if any involvement in either the details or the overall theme of the actual course and holes that were built.  
« Last Edit: December 12, 2006, 09:27:14 AM by Mike Cirba »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #537 on: December 12, 2006, 09:31:16 AM »
Question for those of you that really know CBM's courses:

Is there any evidence of CBM ever building a left-to-right REDAN, or a back-to-front sloping REDAN?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #538 on: December 12, 2006, 09:33:56 AM »
Question for those of you that really know CBM's courses:

Is there any evidence of CBM ever building a left-to-right REDAN, or a back-to-front sloping REDAN?

1) Yes, at Sleepy Hollow, although I'd argue that the 3rd at Merion is sloped much more back to front than left to right.
2) No, never, because that would have been completely inconsistent with Macdonald's own definition of a redan.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #539 on: December 12, 2006, 09:40:38 AM »
Mike,

I might have been unclear with my left-to-right question. I was more asking about the orientation of the green. I am trying to refuse to call it Reverse Redan, but that would clarify my thought.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #540 on: December 12, 2006, 09:51:19 AM »
Jim,

Yes, I understand.   Macdonald's reverse redan at Sleepy Hollow is quite a bit downhill (sorry Patrick ;)), has a big "kicker" left, and a green than slopes left to right and front to back.  

It's a really fun hole, especially for a lefty like me.

T_MacWood

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #541 on: December 12, 2006, 10:05:22 AM »
Mike
All we have are reports at the time stating the committee designed the course, headed by Wilson, advised by M&W.

It is true we DON'T know that M&W's "advisement" consisted of ANYTHING related to designing the golf course, or the specific holes or features.  Not a single thing. Nor do we know of anything specific the committee members did. Not a single thing.

Its also true no one knows precisely how much time the committeemen spent on site and no one knows precisely how much time M&W spent on site. There is no documentation....although there is plenty of speculation.

We can speculate until the cows come home. What we need is more research and documentation.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #542 on: December 12, 2006, 10:17:34 AM »
Tom,

I agree that more research and documentation would be great if it still exists.

However, your comparison is hardly apples to apples.

You're talking about two guys who lived out in the Hamptons and their time and involvement on site versus the committee of five who were members of Merion and who were presumably excited to build a new course.

One of them even went so far as to travel abroad for eight months to study and sketch the classic courses and great holes!  ;)

Not coincidentally, that same guy then designed the West Course at Merion, a project begun less than eighteen months after the start of the East course (which was completed in six months).  

So, let's see.   The Merion membership sends Wilson overseas for eight months prior to construction to get ideas, they have him architect their second course immediately after the first one was designed and built, and we're comparing that with Macdonald's documented involvement (2 days prior spent with Wilson at NGLA and at least one site visit) as equitable?  

 

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #543 on: December 12, 2006, 10:21:32 AM »
 I can see why some called the old #10 an Alps in principle, #3 a Redan- if the general idea is attacking the green as if it were a fortification-,#15 green  an Eden type green with a severe back to front slope with a deep fronting bunker. There also seemed to be a Principal's Nose bunker complex and some Valleys of Sin.

   These would  all be  obvious results of Wilson's eight months in Britain.

  I think DMoriarity thinks these are evidence of MacDonald's advice.


        If Wilson had not spent EIGHT months visiting and researching the great courses and holes overseas maybe this contention would be worth more.


    But, I think it makes sense that the Merion history would have been specific in its credit for MacDonald's contributions. Something like " Mr.MacDonald's concept for an Alps hole was used for the construction of #10".

     It seems proper that no specifics were necessary  for the work of "the committee". It is assumed that they did everything not specified.

  Would not MacDonald have raised all holy hell at the time if he felt slighted by Merion as to his contributions?
AKA Mayday

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #544 on: December 12, 2006, 10:27:00 AM »
  Would not MacDonald have raised all holy hell at the time if he felt slighted by Merion as to his contributions?

That is probably the best question asked on this entire thread.

There is no doubt that Macdonald would have come down here and tried to kick the ass of the entire committee had that happened.  ;D

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #545 on: December 12, 2006, 10:30:37 AM »
 Mike,

  It would have been even better if I had used a lower case "d". Sorry about my ignorance.
AKA Mayday

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #546 on: December 12, 2006, 10:39:20 AM »
 What is more interesting to me is how some of these "British" features were changed soon after the course opened. Supposedly, Flynn had much to do with this. And the fact that he did not go overseas made these changes more "American". Thus the story of Flynn starts in earnest and will someday be available for all of us to read ;D
« Last Edit: December 12, 2006, 10:39:44 AM by mayday_malone »
AKA Mayday

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #547 on: December 12, 2006, 10:42:30 AM »
[size=4x]
A QUESTION .... PERHAPS THE QUESTION

IF CBM ADIVSED ON MERION, WHY DIDN'T HE WRITE A DETAILED ACCOUNT OF HIS INVOLVEMENT AT MERION ?
[/SIZE]


His ego would have demanded credit for any contribution to the routing, design and construction of Merion had he been involved in any of those endeavors.

Yet, Nowhere do we find anything from CBM detailing his contributions to the creation of Merion.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2006, 10:45:48 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

T_MacWood

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #548 on: December 12, 2006, 01:05:13 PM »
[size=4x]
A QUESTION .... PERHAPS THE QUESTION

IF CBM ADIVSED ON MERION, WHY DIDN'T HE WRITE A DETAILED ACCOUNT OF HIS INVOLVEMENT AT MERION ?
[/SIZE]


His ego would have demanded credit for any contribution to the routing, design and construction of Merion had he been involved in any of those endeavors.

Yet, Nowhere do we find anything from CBM detailing his contributions to the creation of Merion.


[size=4x]I DON'T THINK YOU KNOW MACDONALD AND HIS EGO ALL THAT WELL.

Why didn't he mention Merion? Macdonald never mentioned his advising at Greenwich or East Lake or Women's National or Shinnecock Hills either. I don't get the impression Macdonald was in constant need of affirmation.

We do know however Whigham had no such problem mentioning Merion:
"The Macdonald-Raynor courses became famous all over America. Among the most famous are Piping Rock, the Merion Cricket Club at Philadelphia, the Country Club of St. Louis, two beautiful courses at White Sulphur, the Lido (literally poured out of a lagoon), and the equally amazing Yale course at New Haven, which was hewn out of rock and forest at an expense of some seven hundred thousand dollars."
[/SIZE]
« Last Edit: December 12, 2006, 01:08:06 PM by Tom MacWood »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion East, 10th hole: Another Piece of the Puzzle?
« Reply #549 on: December 12, 2006, 01:10:35 PM »
Tom,

What year did Whigham write that?   I'm guessing sometime after the late 1920's, perhaps at Raynor's death?

Was Macdonald's "advisement" of Greenwich, East Lake, and Women's National similarly vague like Merion's?   Didn't Macdonald have an issue with Shinnecock?

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back