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Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2003, 07:50:03 AM »
JakaB,

I don't hate Fazio.  I think he has designed wome good courses.  I particularly like the courses at PGA Golf Club in Port St. Lucie, FL.  However, I think he is not the PREMIER restorative architect in the business and I question his purity as a golfer when he gives in to or advises clubs to make changes that I believe are a complete makeover of a classic hole or course...and...I could name numerous other architects I would choose to design or renovate my course.

Let's put it this way, Fazio is like Black Angus when I'd much rather be at Peter Luger.

Jeff F.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2003, 08:22:16 AM by Jeff_Fortson »
#nowhitebelt

JakaB

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2003, 08:15:33 AM »
Jeff,

It isn't about love or hate Fazio...I wouldn't even choose him to design a course for me..Its about the term "Typical Fazio" which the party line loves to quote...After a full day I still don't "get it".

btw...why in the hell would you say waterfalls...he is surely not the king of the fall.

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2003, 08:28:33 AM »
JakaB,

I know he isn't the king of waterfalls but some of the courses I have played of his have them.  I don't mind them if they are natural but the man-made kind are such eyesores.

I was stretching for something to complain about, Barney ;D.  I guess the only thing I would call "Typical Fazio" are his expesive fees to build, in most cases, very average golf courses.

Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

JakaB

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2003, 08:33:32 AM »
I would now call the Missouri Bluffs an average golf course...but interestingly 25 years ago I would have called it a great public course....Has Fazio raised the bar of what we call average though his mind numbing expensive average layouts....can we thank him or the doofs that footed the bill...all I can say is thank you somebody.

A_Clay_Man

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2003, 08:35:44 AM »
John- Thanks for clarifying what this post should be about.

Since there really hasn't been any (too much) Fazio bashing lately on this site, I was wondering why you would bring up something that is so contentious.

But, since you have clarified what and why you made this thread, I feel sorry(for u) if you can't tell the difference between a thought provoking design and those that have led the minons to cry out for more intelligent designs.

Can you imagine what the man could do with his ability to construct if he(they) had the understanding that option filled, is what these purists want? I guess he's done it in spots but the word "typical" would lead a passive reader to think that the fat part of his bell shaped curve is only adequate.

What about a typical Doak? What does that make you think of? Or a typical C&C? How about a typical Mac?

JakaB

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2003, 08:42:37 AM »
Adam,

I don't get out much but just today I will drive by the worst of Doak to play the best of Fazio...appoximately.  I just go by what I read on here....and like you with agronomy I like to keep my mind fresh by reading nothing else.   I honestly don't know if the guys on this site know their shit or not...lotta yes and alotta not all in the same package.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2003, 08:46:01 AM »
JakaB
For what it is worth, the term I used in the Crabapple thread was NOT "typical" Fazio!  I used "stereotypical", and I used it on purpose, so that those who like his designs, those who don't like his designs, and those who are somewhere in between could avoid value judgements.  YOU were the one who changed the wording to "typical".  Not that there's anything wrong with that...

Additionally, the only feature I referred to as stereotypical was lots of enormous bunkers.  There are over 100 bunkers on the Crabapple course, and if you watch the tube this weekend, you might agree that they are somewhat large.  Like it or not, that IS part of the sterotype of a Fazio course, isn't it?  I don't even care if you like the course or not; that's a lot of big bunkers.  Again, I got reamed here this summer for daring to say I liked a Fazio course!  Where were you then?
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2003, 08:51:28 AM »
JakaB,

"I honestly don't know if the guys on this site know their shit or not..."

Who and what shit are you refering to?

Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

A_Clay_Man

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2003, 09:03:50 AM »
Wasn't last weeks pga held at a Fazio also? La Cantera? If so, maybe by looking at some of the scores shot during this years schedule will confirm that the collective you site knows stuff. I believe the 61, 62's were had opposed to the 66's at Westchester of the comparably high rounds at Pebble and The Riv.

John- If your intent was to insult me with your agronomy line, forget it. Won't happen.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2003, 09:08:35 AM »
Jeff Fortson:

For me "you guys on this site" ranks right there with saying "typical Fazio".

The people I've met through GCA all have their own character and different experiences in the world of golf. As you suggest, "you guys" is way too vague.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2003, 09:08:58 AM by Tim_Weiman »
Tim Weiman

JakaB

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2003, 09:10:01 AM »
Adam,

I admire your take on agronomy and almost told you so at the time...If I wanted to insult you I would question why you just said that low scores on the PGA Tour proves bad architecture...was the course not long enough for you baby doll..

JohnV

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2003, 09:15:20 AM »
Adam, La Cantera is a Weiskopf/Moorish course.

In Fazio's book, he talks about a hole that doglegs around water on the left.  He says something like: The green opens from the right because that is where the usual golfer hits it.

In other words, the player who challenges the water on the left and shortens the hole gets no reward with a better target.  That is what is wrong with a lot of his holes.  He offers no reward for taking risks and frequently rewards the riskless with the reward.

JakaB

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #62 on: October 01, 2003, 09:33:59 AM »
dbb
« Last Edit: October 01, 2003, 09:42:04 AM by JakaB »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Too set in your ways to change your mind?
« Reply #63 on: October 01, 2003, 10:02:14 AM »
Its about the term "Typical Fazio" which the party line loves to quote...After a full day I still don't "get it".

Barney:

Perhaps you've reached your own conclusion and nothing I or anyone else can say will help you get it.

You know how you feel and you know how some of us who responded feel.  Let's just agree to disagree and if I see you posing similar queries about "typical Fazios" in the future I'll know you would rather use this forum for purposes other than to understand and learn golf course architecture.

If your point is that you don't see anything "typical" from Fazio, you'll agree that generalizing can be dangerous.  Review your posts on this thread and you'll see nobody has done more generalizing than you have.

JOHN (one of the stoopids)

P.S.  Do us all a favor and define party line.

Adam:

Regarding the BD-Quarry site...

the terrain has some undulation and is treed.  The 5 holes that wrap around the quarry are sensational and do involve a few forced carries.  (Forward tees exist that temper them.)  Was the site bad in some regards?  Yes.  But Tom Fazio was afforded a budget in working for Ken? Olson who was one of the original founders of Digital Equipment.  No money, no golf course.

My point about the course and "typical Fazio" claims is that the site is so unique because of the 5 quarry holes that you naturally have an atypical result.  

Redanman:

I agree that the course isn't perfect, but you have a hard time talking about the 18 holes as one course.  What are we evaluating?  The 13 normal holes or the 5 with a sensational almost-one-of-a-kind setting?

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #64 on: October 01, 2003, 10:14:25 AM »
John, We need some pictures to post--do you have any? send them to me and I'll post them.

HamiltonBHearst

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #65 on: October 01, 2003, 10:27:26 AM »

many on this site admire the architects that restore typical features of the classic era courses.  Sometimes this is based on being familiar wth the "typical styles".  Doesn't Mr. Bahto know what a typical Macdonald style is?  I do not feel it is such a negative for Fazio to have a typical style.  people like his courses.

T_MacWood

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #66 on: October 01, 2003, 10:29:00 AM »
Fazio is a very talented architect. He has an artistic/aesthetic flare that very few architects past or present have possessed. One of the reasons you will find variation from course to course is because of the variation in stylistic preferences of his associates.

His green designs are not a problem IMO. The greens are the strength of Sand Ridge, and they are very good at Forest Creek.

Aesthetic presentation seems to me to be a point of major emphasis. Often his hazards are places to create a lovely picture, off the tee or approaching the green. I’ve noticed a certain repetitiveness in the placement of the bunkers, there appears to be a desire to frame each hole. I’ve also noticed he repeats bunker shapes from course to course.

One of the tactics he uses is to landscape the area surrounding the tee. Often creating waste areas or actually bunkering the teeing area. His courses have hyper-natural appearance. I prefer the real thing, with all its potential ugliness.

In his desire to present a perfect picture, he often uses a heavy hand to shape the fairways and the result is sometimes a fairway that bears no relationship to the natural contours of the land. Forest Creek is an exception, the greatest asset that site had was the rolling topography and for the most part he utilized it with little interference…at least in using the major contours. But you will never find the smaller oddball natural ground contours on his courses. Even some of the more distinctive contours, like at the 18th at Sand Ridge, seems to a man-made manipulation.

Because he likes to be in control of the picture, he rarely pushes the envelope. For example at Victoria National you have all these wild waste piles. Instead of bringing them into play and creating some very unique holes--some possibly a little odd or quirky or exhilarating--he chose to use them on the perimeter, to frame the picture. And when they are perpendicular to play, you really aren’t aware of it….at least I wasn’t. One of the most interesting holes on the course is the par-5 on the front, which has a waste pile encroaching into play.

The fact you won’t find any bad holes or odd holes or quirky holes is a weakness IMO. Although aesthetically pleasing and possessing solid shot making requirement his courses can have somewhat staid quality, because he rarely allows nature to throw him off his formulaic path…each hole being a potential signature hole. If he ever let his air down he would be hard to beat.

His 'renovation' activities is another story.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2003, 04:35:28 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2003, 10:30:25 AM »
Bonus points, discount points, tradition points, whatever points. Somebody should round up all you raters, put you in a cave somewhere and seal the exit for the rest of time!  ;)

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2003, 10:37:58 AM »
You can see photos of every hole at this link:
http://www.blackdiamondranch.com/page/2-94.htm?course_id=4&hole=1
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #69 on: October 01, 2003, 10:45:03 AM »
Tom MacWood:

Post #72 is really good--really, really good---observant, balanced, well thought out---that's the kind of honest course evaluation this website needs more of! There’s nothing remotely biased in that Fazio evaluation, just a really good overall take on Fazio, in my opinion.

“If he ever let his air down he would be hard to beat.”

I am perplexed by this final remark though. What is his (Tom Fazio’s) ‘air’. If you mean his “hair” that could be a real problem. He doesn’t have that much of it left to let down even if he wanted to!

A_Clay_Man

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2003, 05:55:29 PM »
JohnV- Thanx

Barney- Don't you find it interesting that there seems to be an inherent barrier to extremely low scores on these older courses?

I do. Blame it on the severity of the greens and the modern speeds, the reasons are not as interesting as the observation.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #71 on: October 02, 2003, 12:42:11 AM »
I find it interesting that a discussion on Fazio's work avoids any meaningful attempt to get at who in his office has been responsible for the work you cite and discuss.

One of my favority Arizona layouts is Ventana Canyon's Mountain Course. While it was much better when it was fresh and not lined with homes, it still remains a thoughtful and interesting design. I do not, however, assume all Fazio courses to be like Ventana — nor should I. There are probably 20 people over the years who have shaped Mr. Fazio's work.

If many of you find a course not to your liking among the prolific architects you immediately paint all of that office's work as being the same.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2003, 12:42:59 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jonathan Cummings

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Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #72 on: October 02, 2003, 05:50:59 AM »
Forrest - you are quite right.  When Fazio talked to us at the rater outing in Pinehurst last year he said that his firm had something like a dozen senior design associates with an average length of time at his firm of 18 years.  Each associate is assigned as the principal architect on new courses the firm picks up.  With Fazio's know desire to spend more time in NC with his family, we asked how he could possible travel to, and spend any quality time at, all the sites he had going.  He all but told us the vast majority of the work was done by his staff.  Like Ross, there are courses with Fazio's name as the architect that Fazio may have never seen (he refused to confirm this).  What he did tell us is that every routing plan is reviewed and approved personally by Tom Fazio.

Jonathan

TEPaul

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #73 on: October 02, 2003, 06:19:17 AM »
Well, isn't that interesting---and certainly by no means unexpected. However, like Ross, who apparently never laid eyes on a portion of the courses that have his name on them, Tom Fazio should take complete responsibility for the quality of designs done by any of his "associates" if he puts his name on the course or else just give the design attribution to whomever in his office did the course. If one looks closely enough there're many things that could be concluded from high production golf design companies!

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #74 on: October 02, 2003, 07:06:45 AM »
Forrest:

In general, we don't discuss the work done by design associates, shapers or interns for any architect. Fazio, in this regard, gets treated like any other architect, though certainly Tom Marzolf's name is used here fairly often.

Are there exceptions? Just a few. People like Dan Proctor, Dave Axeland and Jim Urbina, for example.

The story behind some projects does include an especially talented crew, e.g., the new course at Stonewall. However, typically this "inside" knowledge doesn't make the headlines.

Keep in mind that some firms deliberately obscure who really does the work as part of their branding and marketing strategy. I'd offer European Golf Design as an example to add a European perspective: clearly Bernard Langer didn't design the Portmarnock Links Hotel course, but marketing guys seem to think more people will play it if they pretend he did.
Tim Weiman

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