Mike Cirba,

The 13th green at Yale isn't flat, or anything near being flat and it has the high right to low left cant.

Mike Cirba,

The 13th green at Yale isn't flat, or anything near being flat and it has the high right to low left cant.

Patrick,

I'm talkiing about the area just short and right of the green.  At Yale, it's flattish.  At the others I described, it's anything but.

Mike,

The area short and right of the green appears to be sloped, down, away from the green, therefore stopping any ball with any type of trajectory.

What am I missing ?

Patrick,

Exactly.   Yale's front right area has a flattish or even inverse slope that tends to kill balls, accentuating the downhill trajectory problems of the shot.

In the other examples raised here that are also downhill, but that I and others claim still work well as Redans (or Naders) anyway (i.e. Mid Ocean, LACC, Sleepy Hollow) have front right or front left areas that are downhill slopes running towards the green, and which will act to propel a ball forward and sideways.

This pic of the 11th at LACC, a Nader, might be useful to illustrate;



Does that help to clarify what I'm saying?

Patrick,

How exactly would you say that left side "kicker" on the 11th at LACC is fundamentally different from the right side "kicker" on the redan you might recognize below;  

Mikey, I bet you thought you were about to hear the first ever Mucci-concession. Whoops, watch your ass after the rug gets pulled out from under your feet.

Jim,

While you were typing that, I just played my trump card.   I'm anxiously waiting Patrick's response.    

If that fails, I'm going to have to go to North Berwick and take ground samples.  

The big fish has already wriggled free Mike, maybe next time. I can see it years from now at Union Cup XXIV, you're telling about the one that got away.

In the words of Captain Ahab, "Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo"  

Once more, with feeling, if the one on the bottom is a redan, why is the one on the top not a nader?  

He can stay under for hours with two barrels!


Question: How long does Mucci have to stay quite before you can claim victory?

Watch for flying fish parts!

Jim/Patrick,

I'm going to consider the fact that Patrick's response did not contain either a single question mark, nor a single BOLDED or all CAPS word as full concession, and swim on home.    

I think the following statement is better here than as its own thread but if I am wrong let me know and I'll start one.

I do not believe the Reverse Redan has any right to be considered a redan to anyone but a left handed golfer. I think we have Redan's and left-handed Redan's, not Redan's and Nader's.

My reasoning is based on the shot requirements and how they are so dramatically different (opposite in fact   ) between the two types.

p.s. Mike, I am not taking sides in your discussion with Pat. I am following a new train of thought. Keep after him, I'm sure you'll reel him in soon. .


For a right handed player to consider the different ways he may try to survive a Redan hole he realizes that every shot must be extremely well played to find the green. The margins for error are only a fraction of the actual green and approach space. A hole moving the other direction does not hold those demands because a left-to-right shots stops so much quicker once it hits the ground.

Thoughts?

Mike

I gotta side with Pat on this one.  Your example of the LACC's 11th is not a Redan or Nader as you call it.  It is downhill (an absolute critical element of a Redan is that it be uphill - hence part of the reason for the name) and without the right (or in this case left) greenside bank with bunkers that kicks balls in if played properly.  In fact, there are very few examples on this thread which are Redans.

Ciao

Sean,

Who determined that "an absolute critical element of a Redan is that it be uphill"??

Mike Cirba,

Your graphics are great, your logic and conclusions,
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FLAWED !  [/COLOR][/SIZE]

Ah, Patrick...you're back again, just like the creature in a sequel that keeps coming back to life.   Is it just coincidence that it's Halloween today??    

I figured you might return, so rather than debate endlessly, I'll let you argue with the following three chaps.   Like Sean Arble, perhaps then you'll argue that you've come up with your own, restrictive definition of a redan that's completey different from conventional thinking, but I think I'd leave it to these experts.  

CB Macdonald - "Take a narrow tableland, tilt it a little from right to left, dig a deep bunker on the front side, approach it diagonally, and you have a redan.   At North Berwick, of course, all these things were done in the beginning by nature.  The only original thing that the greenkeeper did was to place the tee so that the shot had to be played cornerwise, so to speak, instead of directly down the tableland".  

Geoff Shackelford - "In most cases, the Redan presents an angled green that slopes slightly away from the player, with a bunker in front of the green and a nice bit of helping contour on the approach designed to give the golfer options in attacking the hole.  The player who plays straight for the flagstick had better hit a high, precise shot.   The less bold player can stay away from the fronting greenside bunker and run his shot into the green, using the contour to help kick the ball onto the surface.   Then there are the options somewhere in between the boldest shot and the safe lay-up."

George Bahto - "What more accurate way to describe a 'Redan' than Macdonald's own words? 'Take a narrow tableland, tilt it a little from right to left, dig a deep bunker on the front side, approach it diagonally, and you have a Redan.' Bear in mind when Macdonald says 'tilt,' he means it. At National, hole #4 falls over five feet from front to rear. Redans are usually around 190 yards (a formidable distance in the early days of golf) with numerous strategic options depending on wind direction and course conditions: Fly it to the green if you are able, lay-up and chip on hoping to make three, hit a running shot at the banked area fronting the green or even play left of the Redan bunker hoping for a better approach angle (not recommended!). Behind the green are usually deep sand pits to catch aggressive play."


 

I would be curious just precisely how uphill the original redan is from tee to green if the fronting rampart were taken out of the measurement.