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Chris Kane

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Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #50 on: October 25, 2006, 06:28:14 PM »
Tom, access to the elite American courses is very difficult to attain - don't kid yourself that its any other way.  Think about the golf trips that you and your buddies take to Scotland and Ireland - such a trip to America would be impossible to arrange unless you were extremely well connected.  As a 22 year-old Australian who is passionate about golf architecture, I'm resigned to the fact that I'm unlikely to see many of America's greats in my lifetime, unlike the UK, where I'll hopefully see every notable course.  

Its interesting that the "old money" clubs in America seem to behave in a manner which would be considered nouveau riche on this side of the pond!

David Stamm

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Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #51 on: October 25, 2006, 06:33:18 PM »
Tom, I couldn't agree more. Private clubs have every right to make whatever rules they want to. That's why they're called a club.  Sure I'd liked to play some of the great private clubs in this country, but it's not my RIGHT to and, like you said, they are private for a reason. My point to JK was that if a similar situation occured here to what Muirfield does, I think it would be great for guys that otherwise wouldn't have access to those courses, but by the same token, I'm not upset it's NOT like Muirfield. Perhaps that's also part of savoring the whole experience when you do have the fortune and privilege to play some of these wonderful courses, that you're lucky just to experience what so few have and enjoy the company of a gracious host and his fellow members. To play some of the great designers work, enjoy the environment and walk around the venerable clubhouses and see the old photos and recount the day's expereince. That's part of what makes this game so great, the experiences and the memories that later you can go back in your mind and relive over and over.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #52 on: October 25, 2006, 06:41:27 PM »
Chris, I don't think Tom was saying (and I don't want to speak for you Tom) that it was easy to attain. I think he was saying that over time he has developed relationships that have allowed him to play some of these courses. He expressed patience and I think that's key. We live in such a instant gratification world now (I'm guilty myself of that) that we want to do things right when we want and in reagrds to this subject, that just can't be the approach. You're only 22 I believe? Hang in there. If you want something bad enough you'll get it. I haven't played any of the top private courses, but hope springs eternal. It gives me something to strive for. But if it doesn't happen, it's not the end of the world.  :)
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #53 on: October 25, 2006, 06:41:58 PM »
Tom -

I have not read any post on this thread where anyone implied they have a "right" to play ANY private course (either here or in GB&I).  The premise of this thread is that access to private courses in GB&I is far, far, far easy than it is to private courses in the US. I think that is a fact that is indisputable.

I suppose it depends upon how one defines "problem." For me, anything other than driving to a course, walking into the pro shop and paying my green fee, is a problem (or a potential one!).  

Many of us have been fortunate enough to make friends and contacts thru the game (and this website) over the years that have greatly expanded our network of potential golfing venues.

But, suppose you were 10 years younger and moved to Cleveland (or some other city where you knew no one) for work. Do you really think you would enjoy the access to the private clubs in that area that you have here and now?

DT
 

 
   

Bill Gayne

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Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #54 on: October 25, 2006, 06:53:54 PM »
One of the ironies of my life (probably many others) is that as my access increases my available time and ability to take advantage of the access decreases. On the other hand I know people with seemingly unlimted time and they are desperate for access.

David Stamm

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Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #55 on: October 25, 2006, 06:56:48 PM »
Sean, I understand what you are saying. It's a shame that lovers of the subject of architecture who really appreciate the designers creation (or not) can't just pick up a phone and make it happen. The irony is that some members at these places are there strictly for social, business and status reasons and couldn't tell you anything about the architect or why the course has the design features that it does. Those are the realities, the here and the now. If I could wave a magic wand and change it to where the golfers who would  trully appreciate the expereince and the members would be happy too, I would.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #56 on: October 25, 2006, 07:06:32 PM »
You're only 22 I believe? Hang in there. If you want something bad enough you'll get it.

David, my point was that as an overseas visitor to both the UK and USA (I'm living in Scotland this year, but will be returning to Melbourne in August), Tom Huckaby's stategies are of no use!  If I lived in America, I might be able to achieve what Tom has, but I don't.

I've been able to access most courses I want to in Australia through people I meet, but America is another frontier.  Imagine if you wanted to play the top 10 private clubs in Australia (or England, or Scotland), but they could only be accessed with a member.  That's the size of the task which confronts us.

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #57 on: October 25, 2006, 07:20:51 PM »
I understand Chris. No, that's probably not enough time to put Tom and my theories to use I'm afraid. And the idea for you now doesn't do you any good at all. But who knows, maybe someday. :)
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #58 on: October 25, 2006, 07:41:38 PM »
Chris Kane's post hits the nail squarely on the head.

A young American or Australian visiting GB&I (who knew no one there) would have access to virtually EVERY top-100 course (or any other course, for that matter) there. The only constraints would be time and budget

Someone from GB&I or Australia visiting the US (who knew no one here) would be very, very fortunate to gain access to ANY top-100 private course here.

That is the reality of the situation. No right or entitlement is implied.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2006, 07:43:21 PM by David_Tepper »

Pete Lavallee

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Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #59 on: October 25, 2006, 10:21:57 PM »
DT,

What's even more tragic is that Chris has been a valuable contributor here for over 6 years; he expressed a keen interest in golf course architecture at the age of 16! Who amongst us is more worthy of at least a glimpse of the best we have to offer in the US. What more is the young man supposed to do to show he is worthy?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

John Kavanaugh

Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #60 on: October 25, 2006, 10:38:51 PM »
Pete,

Chris is living in Scotland this year playing the great courses of the world.  What do you want us to do for him now.  Let's have him post his resume and see if we can get him on The Country Club by 2010 to avoid this tragedy in his life.

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #61 on: October 25, 2006, 10:44:27 PM »

John

I don't know.  As a visitor to Muirfield on three separate trips I thought Muirfield did very well by me.  I was a happy customer.  I haven't heard many people complain about the opportunity to play Muirfield.  One can always not pay and not play.  

Consider this John.  Muirfield charges about the same as TOC yet it is a private club with no obligation to the public.  I know I am treated a damn sight better by Muirfield than the Links Trust.  

Ciao

The guy who used to be the Secretary/Manager wasn't a fan of Americans no matter how much money you had... I found him to be perfectly reasonable, possibly because I was able to look at him and see that he didn't want to be called "pal" or "buddy" or by his first name... which escapes me at the moment.
Next!

Pete Lavallee

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Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #62 on: October 25, 2006, 10:46:05 PM »
JakaB,

Perhaps this is a worthy occasion for the BBGE to step in and save the day. As a member of a Top 100 Club the world is your oyster with a mere phone call from your pro. You seem to have little empathy for the those of us who aren't so fortunate; even if we are tall and Catholic. God, I hope for Chris's sake he's either tall or Catholic.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2006, 10:47:08 PM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Mark_F

Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #63 on: October 25, 2006, 10:47:58 PM »
Chris,

You could always join The Golf Club St Andrews Beach, where we don't allow any guests, overseas, interstate or otherwise, unless accompanied by a member, as a form of protest.

And I very much doubt that the six degrees of separation theorem wouldn't apply to you in regards to access US courses.  After all, even humble old me is only 3 steps away from Dirty Harry himself.

I can think of at least two people, with a nod to a third, that you know (reasonably) well who could probably help such a fine young architecture student from middle class Melbourne.

Stop whining when you are but a short hop from Royal County Down and Ballybunion.

I would also venture to say you have played Royal Melbourne more than many (most?) posters here.

How many Americans do you think can better that?

John Kavanaugh

Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #64 on: October 25, 2006, 10:54:06 PM »
JakaB,

Perhaps this is a worthy occasion for the BBGE to step in and save the day. As a member of a Top 100 Club the world is your oyster with a mere phone call from your pro. You seem to have little empathy for the those of us who aren't so fortunate; even if we are tall and Catholic. God, I hope for Chris's sake he's either tall or Catholic.

I will never ask my pro at the top 100 club I am a member of to get me on a course...I promise you that.  They and other members of the club monitor this site so you can take it to the bank.  I get on courses because people love me and/or respect my love for the game.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2006, 11:16:40 PM by John Kavanaugh »

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #65 on: October 25, 2006, 10:54:32 PM »
Chris,

 

 
 
 

Stop whining when you are but a short hop from Royal County Down and Ballybunion.

I would also venture to say you have played Royal Melbourne more than many (most?) posters here.

How many Americans do you think can better that?
 



I certainly can't!


"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #66 on: October 25, 2006, 10:55:30 PM »
Our recent club newsletter carried an article about gaining access to overseas clubs. While UK access has never been a problem (a letter from the General Manager does the job at most places), the GM recently added a trip through the US during his annual home visit to Canada.

The list of courses he visited were the usual suspects from the GD top 25. The end result was that no formal reciprocal rights were struck, but the implication is that a letter from the club requesting playing rights would be looked upon favorably... and vica versa. I plan on testing this out next summer.
Next!

David Sneddon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #67 on: October 25, 2006, 10:56:08 PM »
The guy who used to be the Secretary/Manager wasn't a fan of Americans no matter how much money you had... I found him to be perfectly reasonable, possibly because I was able to look at him and see that he didn't want to be called "pal" or "buddy" or by his first name... which escapes me at the moment.
Quote

That (in)famous Muirfield Secretary - Paddy Hanmer
Give my love to Mary and bury me in Dornoch

David_Tepper

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Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #68 on: October 26, 2006, 12:13:55 AM »
Mark Ferguson -

To accuse Chris Kane of "whining" is very unfair. He is simply stating obvious facts and not asking anyone to fell sorry for him.

Whether or not he knows some people (or knows some people who know some other people) who might help him get access to some of the top private courses in the US is beside the point.

You, I or Chris can access almost EVERY golf course in GB&I simply by showing up and paying a green fee. We would be lucky to access ANY private club in the US by doing the same.

For every person who may have a network of friends and contacts to access the top private courses in the US, there are hundreds and hundreds of interested, knowledgeable and capable golfers who don't.

No one is in any way entitled to play these private courses in the US.  But the climate for golf in the US might be healthier and more welcoming if some mechanism for unsponsored visitor play  was available.  

DT    
   

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #69 on: October 26, 2006, 12:42:02 AM »
I know one guy in the UK that has the best access to top US courses.  His list of those played would amaze you.  He is the starter at a club in Scotland.  The club shall remain nameless as I don't want to mess up his gig, but here is how it works. He is very friendly, chats up every American that comes though and raves about what he has heard about the courses the players belong to.  Before long someone asks if he ever gets Stateside.  He tells them that he takes a trip each year and before you know it he has rounds set up for his next trip.

Very smart fellow.   ;)

Tim Pitner

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Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #70 on: October 26, 2006, 12:45:58 AM »
This topic raised a question to me . . .

Is it a double standard that this forum will discuss in exhaustive detail how to access a "private" course in countries outside the United States, but any mention of the topic with regard to U.S. private clubs is verboten?  I recall reading advice on how to petition Swinley Forest, Rye and similar courses for access without anyone protesting.  

Bob_Huntley

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Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #71 on: October 26, 2006, 12:48:05 AM »

John

I don't know.  As a visitor to Muirfield on three separate trips I thought Muirfield did very well by me.  I was a happy customer.  I haven't heard many people complain about the opportunity to play Muirfield.  One can always not pay and not play.  

Consider this John.  Muirfield charges about the same as TOC yet it is a private club with no obligation to the public.  I know I am treated a damn sight better by Muirfield than the Links Trust.  

Ciao

The guy who used to be the Secretary/Manager wasn't a fan of Americans no matter how much money you had... I found him to be perfectly reasonable, possibly because I was able to look at him and see that he didn't want to be called "pal" or "buddy" or by his first name... which escapes me at the moment.



First name, Paddy, surname Hanmer. At times a delight, with Americans a real right prick.

Bob

Darren_Kilfara

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #72 on: October 26, 2006, 03:46:53 AM »
This thread wasn't meant to be about how individuals can gain access to great courses; I think we've had plenty of those in the past. Rather, I wanted it to be about how clubs with great courses could (and should?) grant access to individuals.

The real beauty of the Muirfield/overseas model is that absolutely anyone can plan a once-in-a-lifetime trip to Scotland, or England, or Ireland, or Australia, and expect to see lots of world-class architecture. The real pain of the US model is that even if I (as someone living overseas) live right/get lucky/etc. and make a connection with a member of a great course in the States, I'm not likely to fly across just for the purpose of joining him for a round at his course. I could personalise this still further with more details about my own situation, but that would miss the point just as surely as someone like Tom Huckaby talking (with the best of intentions) about how he's managed to play lots of elite courses down the years does. Some of you make the access question sound like a complicated puzzle with a number of difficult but not impossible solutions; the real shame is that it has to be a puzzle at all.

There's another angle to this topic which some of you perhaps may want to consider. How does the average American golfer come to learn about the joys of firm-and-fast conditions or any of the other non-mainstream architectural values which many of us on this site believe are so important? The short answer is that he can't: overseas examples (e.g. linksland golf) can be dismissed as a novelty which is irrelevant to the American experience, and good homegrown examples are few and far between. So he's left to "learn" from what he sees on television, particularly at the Masters and the US Open - where of course the wrong lessons are usually learned, because these are extreme examples for so many reasons. What would it do to the level of discourse on GCA in America if a regular group of four buddies could travel to a Crystal Downs, a Merion or an NGLA to see what the fuss is all about, and then bring some knowledge of that experience back home to their club?

By the way, the "four buddies" point is quite significant in and of itself - how someone experiences a golf course is entirely different when he's relaxed and with his mates relative to when he's the guest of a member (or members). Most of you will have travelled overseas or to a Bandon/Pinehurst/etc. setup with your closest golfing buddies and will know what I mean; for better or worse, that experience cannot be repeated at private clubs in the States.

Cheers,
Darren

Chris Kane

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Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #73 on: October 26, 2006, 05:41:00 AM »
You could always join The Golf Club St Andrews Beach, where we don't allow any guests, overseas, interstate or otherwise, unless accompanied by a member, as a form of protest

Really?  I know of at least one person who has played there as a manager's guest, $160 I believe.

Quote
I would also venture to say you have played Royal Melbourne more than many (most?) posters here.

Which is no different to someone who lives 25 minutes from Winged Foot playing there 3-4 times per year.

Mark, David Tepper is right - I'm not whining about the situation (I wouldn't dare whine about anything on a golf architecture website given where I'm sitting right now!), I'm trying to illustrate the difficulty of access for an international visitor.  Its all irrelevant for me anyway at the moment, as the chances of me visiting America in the foreseeable future are slim.  It would be interesting to see how many courses I could play if I exhausted my network of contacts.

...he expressed a keen interest in golf course architecture at the age of 16! Who amongst us is more worthy of at least a glimpse of the best we have to offer in the US.

Jordan Wall.


Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would the Muirfield model work at elite courses in the US?
« Reply #74 on: October 26, 2006, 05:55:50 AM »

...he expressed a keen interest in golf course architecture at the age of 16! Who amongst us is more worthy of at least a glimpse of the best we have to offer in the US.

Jordan Wall.



Nice one, and for those of you still in any doubt I can confirm this young man really does exist.  Yes I've met Chris Kane. ;)
Let's make GCA grate again!

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