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HamiltonBHearst

Re:The Trump Courses
« Reply #50 on: October 08, 2006, 05:35:49 PM »


Seems to me that in the past Matt Ward has called just about everyone a "homer" when discussing their home club or in my case clubs.  Can't Ward be a homer also?  Did you really have lobster and Filet at the turn as Mr. Slapper says? Did you pay for the round the caddies? the valet parking? How many rounds have been comped to Jersey Golfer since the Donald took over the club?

Wasn't it a review of Bedminster in Jersey Golfer where it said that everything that Donald Trump does is "classy"?  

Classy=Donald? How much did the review cost?

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Trump Courses
« Reply #51 on: October 09, 2006, 09:14:36 AM »


Seems to me that in the past Matt Ward has called just about everyone a "homer" when discussing their home club or in my case clubs.  Can't Ward be a homer also?  Did you really have lobster and Filet at the turn as Mr. Slapper says? Did you pay for the round the caddies? the valet parking? How many rounds have been comped to Jersey Golfer since the Donald took over the club?

Wasn't it a review of Bedminster in Jersey Golfer where it said that everything that Donald Trump does is "classy"?  

Classy=Donald? How much did the review cost?


Hammy,

   I'd love to see an honest answer to the above, but I'd not hold my breath! :o
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Mike_Cirba

Re:The Trump Courses
« Reply #52 on: October 09, 2006, 09:59:23 AM »
Can someone post a link to the Jersey Golfer review?  I haven't been able to Google it.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Trump Courses
« Reply #53 on: October 09, 2006, 11:03:22 AM »
Mike,

   They haven't posted it. In fact, those technically sophisticated doyennes over there have yet to even update the site with any fresh content. By the likes of their travel schedules and course reviews, don't count on it any time soon. ;D
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Matt_Ward

Re:The Trump Courses
« Reply #54 on: October 09, 2006, 12:43:53 PM »
Hamilton:

Let's clear the air with the mud you've tossed -- heck - it's the political season so I guess the scent must be in the air.

I don't belong to any golf club. I do that because it gives me the freedom to write what I like -- when I like and say what I believe.

By the way -- yes -- there are people who are "homers" because they are members of a club and many don't even outline that prior to their writings on their respective course(s). I credit people who do announce their connection beforehand because it allows the reader to place in context what has been said.

Let me also blow out of the water this idea that I was served lobster and other assorted foods when I visited Trump for my round of golf last week. It never happened. I came there strictly for the golf and didn't eat anything there.

Trump did invite people to the club (e.g. guests, press and others) approximately two years ago when the course was still under construction. Was food served there? Sure. Do other courses do likewise with special events? Absolutely. Does it impact what I think about courses? Not the least. And my writing here and elsewhere supports that. For those who don't believe it I could care less what they think because it's nothing more than ignorance coming forward from their side.

Couple of other points -- clubs routinely invite press people to come to their courses. If there are fees that need to be paid when playing I pay them. Does a "comp" round versus one that I have to pay sway my final opinion? Not the least. For those who cynically see it differently all I can say is that's your opinion and one I don't share.

A few other items --

We at Jersey Golfer NEVER confuse editorial with advertorial. You may be confusing what other pubs do -- we don't do it --now or ever. The comments expressed within are given without regard to whether people / courses will continue with their advertising. Have we lost people because of our comments? Sure. But we have also gained the respect of our readers who we know are always interested in opinions that are not compromised by simply being an extension of the clubs themselves.

The review of Trump National / Bedminster was written by Bill Vostinak and while the article is not posted on our new Website -- by the way Steve L take a chill because we are in the midst in updating it but if it doesn't meet your New York minute preferences I'm sooooo sorry ;D -- I will be glad to have it posted for people to read here.

Bill was simply asked to provide his thoughts on the course. There was no quid pro quo of any type for his opinion to be one way or the other. For the cynics who don't believe a word I have just written -- I could frankly care less. Nothing will convince / break the concrete mindset they have.

Now, let us go back to the topic at hand instead of this clever side-step show. ;)

Matt_Ward

Re:The Trump Courses
« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2006, 09:42:51 AM »
Gents:

The article below is the review written by Bill Vostinak for Jersey Golfer (Spring / 2006) in regards to his review of Trump National.

*****

The stimpmeter is a very misunderstood instrument developed by a greenskeeper to maintain consistency in his course's putting surfaces green to green. It has become a notorious device as the USGA has sped up greens for its national championships, increasing from year to year. Stimpmeter readings over 10 are perceived as fast by most golfers although they are less than what the average tour professional faces in week-to-week-out.

The stimpmeter is very important as we approach the new Trump National Bedminster golf course. This modern design is a very important golf course to look at and understand several aspects of design, maintenance and competition in modern golf. It has been recognized and lauded by numerous magazines and has become a must-play in the State of New Jersey.

The golf course and club is important in that it works on so many levels. Serious golfers and casual golfers look at golf in a myriad of ways. It is a game, a sport and pastime as well as an experience. Trump National Bedminster is at the top of the list for experience. It is also not only an excellent and fun-to-play golf course, but also a versatile golf course. This walk in the park coupled with an experience that is relaxing and simultaneously stimulating is extraordinarily memorable. There is always the larger-than-life persona of Mr. Trump. He has put together his club and he wanted and pulled it off all aces. Whether or not he is on the grounds, his presence is everywhere inseparable from the experience that is Trump National Bedminster. His insistence on top notch quality exudes everywhere from the fit and finish of the clubhouse and locker room, to the excellence of cuisine through to the perfection that is the maintenance of the golf course. This is the total package.

Superintendent Greg Nicoll (CGCS) has done a magnificent job with the grow-in and conditioning of the golf course. It plays as well and as widely versatile as any modern golf course I have encountered and Scott is worthy of any praises sent his way, wonderfully consistent turf is absolutely everywhere.

I have been fortunate to play the course with our publisher under what I would call member-ready conditions, the green stimping at 10-10.5, providing all the challenge that most golfers can handle. These green speeds provide just enough trickle speed to keep most golfers honest; one cannot just bang away putts without regard for what happens if the ball goes past the cup. You are asked to perform. The green contours allow you to reap benefits from properly placed tee shots setting up approaches that are ideal for particular pin placements. There is not an over abundance of bunkering so that the course becomes a duffer's nightmare, but bunkering and other hazards are thoughtfully placed, bot just pretty features for "framing" which have taken over many modern designs for beauty's sake, but for real strategies. The golfer also finds green contours worthy of determining strategies all on their own, one of the hallmarks of the highest quality golf in the art of golf course architecture. Tommy Fazio, Tom Fazio and the whole team have done some of their finest work in this regard. New Jersey is very fortunate to have th eprized layout Galloway National from this team, one of their very best layouts.


John Kavanaugh

Re:The Trump Courses
« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2006, 09:46:35 AM »
Gents:

The article below is the review written by Bill Vostinak for Jersey Golfer (Spring / 2006) in regards to his review of Trump National.

*****

The stimpmeter is a very misunderstood instrument developed by a greenskeeper to maintain consistency in his course's putting surfaces green to green. It has become a notorious device as the USGA has sped up greens for its national championships, increasing from year to year. Stimpmeter readings over 10 are perceived as fast by most golfers although they are less than what the average tour professional faces in week-to-week-out.

The stimpmeter is very important as we approach the new Trump National Bedminster golf course. This modern design is a very important golf course to look at and understand several aspects of design, maintenance and competition in modern golf. It has been recognized and lauded by numerous magazines and has become a must-play in the State of New Jersey.

The golf course and club is important in that it works on so many levels. Serious golfers and casual golfers look at golf in a myriad of ways. It is a game, a sport and pastime as well as an experience. Trump National Bedminster is at the top of the list for experience. It is also not only an excellent and fun-to-play golf course, but also a versatile golf course. This walk in the park coupled with an experience that is relaxing and simultaneously stimulating is extraordinarily memorable. There is always the larger-than-life persona of Mr. Trump. He has put together his club and he wanted and pulled it off all aces. Whether or not he is on the grounds, his presence is everywhere inseparable from the experience that is Trump National Bedminster. His insistence on top notch quality exudes everywhere from the fit and finish of the clubhouse and locker room, to the excellence of cuisine through to the perfection that is the maintenance of the golf course. This is the total package.

Superintendent Greg Nicoll (CGCS) has done a magnificent job with the grow-in and conditioning of the golf course. It plays as well and as widely versatile as any modern golf course I have encountered and Scott is worthy of any praises sent his way, wonderfully consistent turf is absolutely everywhere.

I have been fortunate to play the course with our publisher under what I would call member-ready conditions, the green stimping at 10-10.5, providing all the challenge that most golfers can handle. These green speeds provide just enough trickle speed to keep most golfers honest; one cannot just bang away putts without regard for what happens if the ball goes past the cup. You are asked to perform. The green contours allow you to reap benefits from properly placed tee shots setting up approaches that are ideal for particular pin placements. There is not an over abundance of bunkering so that the course becomes a duffer's nightmare, but bunkering and other hazards are thoughtfully placed, bot just pretty features for "framing" which have taken over many modern designs for beauty's sake, but for real strategies. The golfer also finds green contours worthy of determining strategies all on their own, one of the hallmarks of the highest quality golf in the art of golf course architecture. Tommy Fazio, Tom Fazio and the whole team have done some of their finest work in this regard. New Jersey is very fortunate to have th eprized layout Galloway National from this team, one of their very best layouts.



Thanks Matt...I just wanted to capture this jewell before you wake up and smell the coffee.  What a day this will be...

Geoffrey Childs

Re:The Trump Courses
« Reply #57 on: October 11, 2006, 09:51:55 AM »
Matt

Is that the whole article?  I don't have it here at work but I recall MUCH more.  Are you giving us the watered down version?

Matt_Ward

Re:The Trump Courses
« Reply #58 on: October 11, 2006, 10:15:55 AM »
Continuation of review ...

I was very fortunate to play Trump National Bedminster under tournament green speed conditions apprpoaching a true 12 on the stimpmeter. This was very much a different character course. When one of preparing a course to challenge the elite player, even 3 more inches of stimp speed can make or break the legitimacy of a pin position and even eliminate entire sets of pin positions. When the golf course is set up in this way, real putting skill is necessary to survive. It is a testament to design that this course has been created in such a way that it can shine for member play and potentially keep the most elite players on edge to demand the finest golf that their games can produce. Under these same conditions, even without the USGA's obligatory 4 inches of rough, the solid club player can feel frustrated and even humiliated.

Many feel that the finish of a golf course determines its worthiness as a tournament venue. Trump finishes on a long to monstrously long par-5 (540-665 yards). Well-bunkered after the drive, the player must weave his way through a series of bunkers on the right side as he tries to get the perfect distance and angle simultaneously while leaving the desire distance for the approach wedge. The green is deep and has internal contours to feed towards or away from many excellent pins. The 17th is a long (167-235 yds) par-3 with a fronting hazard and a very large tilted green. The 16th is one of the best green complexes that I have seen from the Fazio team, a true boomerang green with fall-offs in most directions. It could even be described as three greens in one, but this is just the gravy after the highly elevated tee shot on this dog-leg left of up to 480 yards with a water mjst carry of 260 yards. This is all preceded by perhaps three of the best par-4's on the course.

Number 13 is a real sleeper at a maximum of only 413 yards but with a massive left-sided bunker determining strategic lines of approach. The green is extremely deep with slopes going away from the player in what seems like all directions. The front left tongue of the green is just thrilling to play.

Fourteeen is perhaps my favorite green with its quirky green featuring a very large front thumbprint depression and elevation changes approaching five feet. There is a bit of misdirection as you approach the green with a hillside sloping the fairway from left-to-right wherein fully a third of the green wants you to position for an approach from the left. This is truly great stuff.

Overall, the course is very well routed over good to excellent terrain for golf. Breathtaking views are the reward for reaching the top of the hill that is 5 and 15 greens and 6 and 16 tees. Nice elevation changes are seen creating not just the usual drop-shot holes, but spectacular uphill holes such as the dramatic and difficult 5th. It stretches nearly to 490 yards with an elevation change of nearly 100 feet with a very dramatic green site set obliquely against the hillside, protected by bunkers that truly extract a penalty. The 15th is also a wonderful uphill hole with a green much more strategically approached from the right side of the fairway and with a fairly substanial forced carry with a cagey elevated fairway target -- brilliant routing indeed. Many architects often shy away from uphill holes and choose to use the uphill terrain for a long cart ride. The insertion of the uphill hole don't just keep the routing intimate and walkable, they provide some of the greatest challenge if the holes are well constructed.

The par-3's all involve a forced carry - water on three and wetlands on the 17th. The shortest hole, #10 is only 165-189 yds, but bunkers and full-fronted water completes the challenge. Great variety in club selection is required with ranges of #4 (143-206), #7 158-185 and the 17th.

In summary, the Trump National Bedminster is well-routed, has spectacular holes, no weaknesses and a variety of challenges including the greatest flexibility of accomodating all classses of golfers. And, if Mr. Trump has his way, he will one day challenge the world's finest golfers. It will, however, remain a family club with golf in the forefront, according to Mr. Trump's wishes for those who are fortunate enough to be members. It earns the rare Jersey Golfer 9 in its debut.

*Note:
A 9 rating equates to "nearly perfect."




Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Trump Courses
« Reply #59 on: October 11, 2006, 10:50:21 AM »
I am shocked the Docor of North Berwick's most famous hole penned that "piece".

C'mon, what maybe ten percent made it past the editor in charge?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Trump Courses
« Reply #60 on: October 11, 2006, 11:03:09 AM »
Matt,

   Let's closely examine Bill's review. Assuming the Lobster & Filet had no effect on his glowing review, the man says the course has"the greatest flexibility of accomodating all classes of golfers," "shines for members" and "has no weaknesses." Those are effusively positive, right?

    Then tell all of us why there is no discussion of the forced (land...not water) carries on 4 of it's holes, and forced H20/waste carries on 4-5 more? Does that characterize "flexibility and accomodation?" I think not and  challenge Bill or the Jersey Golfer to explain why it does? Especially when all of those forced carried have NO significantly UP (on the green side of the hazard) tees for women or seniors? Sure those might be considered strengths for a tour event, but that's hardly what I would call "member-friendly." The "family club" nature of the course is not very much there at all.

    In fact, if you, Bill, Jersey Golfer or anyone else were to take a poll of the TN membership (and one already exists to support my argument), you'd find a strong majortiy of the members think the course almost borders on being "too tough" and is usually "grossly unfair" for seniors, weaker ladies, and young kids. I played it once this summer with a 76yr old gentleman with a very good and straight game (used to carry a 4 hcp years back, probably a 16 now). He mentioned that this would be the last time he played here (and his son is a member!) as there are no forward tees that give him any relief and thought the course unwalkable and too limiting. I guess we should throw the seniors "under the bus" for this "flexible" golf course.

   Clearly, Bill was so smitten with the day and the greenspeeds he forgot to apply balance and note the way the course is set up for very average golfers. Thus, I think the review is considerably flawed and riddled with misconception about design and playability.

    Look, I've played it mulitple times (more than Bill, you and Jersey Golfer....go ahead and make some snide remark about that...I expect it) and do believe it has gotten a good deal better. It is also a very tough layout (something Pat Mucci & I, both single-digit hcp's, have reiterated) and worthy of some MGA-level tournaments. It is a very good golf course, but one with considerable limitations for all but the seriously strong golfers, yet hardly any part a sporty venue. Using the Jersey Golfer index, it warrant little better than 7 in my book.
   

The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

HamiltonBHearst

Re:The Trump Courses
« Reply #61 on: October 11, 2006, 11:14:53 AM »


Can anything "trump" be "at the top" for a "golf experience"?  I wonder how Jersey golfer rates the "experience" at Merion and Seminole and Sand Hills?  I guess they need better menus and more polished brass :D

wsmorrison

Re:The Trump Courses
« Reply #62 on: October 11, 2006, 11:16:53 AM »
In the first section of the article posted here it states:

"I have been fortunate to play the course with our publisher under what I would call member-ready conditions, the green stimping at 10-10.5, providing all the challenge that most golfers can handle."

The second posting of the remaining article states in the very first line:

"I was very fortunate to play Trump National Bedminster under tournament green speed conditions apprpoaching a true 12 on the stimpmeter. This was very much a different character course."

It is not clear, if this is the published article, if BillV played the course on more than one occasion under different greenspeeds or there is a poor editing job or inaccuracies.  Perhaps we need to see the published article.  What is(are) the explanation(s)?

Comped golf has, at the very least, perceived conflicts of interest if not real ones.  I am sure, to be fair, a case by case basis would lead to different degrees of conflict from zero to significant.  But what's the point?  The value of these sorts of articles runs the same gamut from zero to significant.  Whose to say unless an individual visits the course?  
« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 12:10:15 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Trump Courses
« Reply #63 on: October 11, 2006, 11:33:50 AM »


Can anything "trump" be "at the top" for a "golf experience"?  I wonder how Jersey golfer rates the "experience" at Merion and Seminole and Sand Hills?  I guess they need better menus and more polished brass :D

   I wonder what they rate Pine Valley & Plainfield at? Also no mention of the gaudy faux "italianate" statue on the back of the 10th tee.....must of been another "architectual omission" caused by the excessive inhalation of fine boeuf, the larger langoustines, and the "family" atmosphere :o

The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Trump Courses
« Reply #64 on: October 11, 2006, 02:16:14 PM »
Steve Lapper, HBH, Matt Ward & Redanman,

A "9" is an extremely lofty rating.

Sometimes the initial "wow" factor relating to the experience overwhelms our senses.

I"ve always favored the "delayed" assessment, which allows the euphoria, or anesthesia to wear off.

TN is a good golf course, but, a "9" seems very generous.

I can't imagine a beginer, mediocre or decent golfer having much fun, as the course presents an overwhelming number of challenges on almost every hole.

I don't know of many golfers who enjoy playing a golf course where you're just one swing away from ruining your round, on almost every hole.

And, in the final analysis, isn't a good course one that provides the blending of fun with the challenge ?
I see the challenge clearly, I"m just having difficulty seeing the fun.

John Kavanaugh

Re:The Trump Courses
« Reply #65 on: October 11, 2006, 02:49:16 PM »
Steve Lapper, HBH, Matt Ward & Redanman,

A "9" is an extremely lofty rating.

ya think..

Sometimes the initial "wow" factor relating to the experience overwhelms our senses.

This is redanman we are talking about..He is not wowed.

I"ve always favored the "delayed" assessment, which allows the euphoria, or anesthesia to wear off.

Have you seen redanman's eye..He can break down a course mid-swing

TN is a good golf course, but, a "9" seems very generous.

ya think...

I can't imagine a beginer, mediocre or decent golfer having much fun, as the course presents an overwhelming number of challenges on almost every hole.

I wonder if the red head played..

I don't know of many golfers who enjoy playing a golf course where you're just one swing away from ruining your round, on almost every hole.

Have you ever heard of match play..

And, in the final analysis, isn't a good course one that provides the blending of fun with the challenge ?
I see the challenge clearly, I"m just having difficulty seeing the fun.

It isn't what is said it is who said it and why where the fun lies..


Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Trump Courses
« Reply #66 on: October 11, 2006, 02:55:55 PM »
Steve Lapper, HBH, Matt Ward & Redanman,

A "9" is an extremely lofty rating.

Sometimes the initial "wow" factor relating to the experience overwhelms our senses.

I"ve always favored the "delayed" assessment, which allows the euphoria, or anesthesia to wear off.

TN is a good golf course, but, a "9" seems very generous.

I can't imagine a beginer, mediocre or decent golfer having much fun, as the course presents an overwhelming number of challenges on almost every hole.

I don't know of many golfers who enjoy playing a golf course where you're just one swing away from ruining your round, on almost every hole.

And, in the final analysis, isn't a good course one that provides the blending of fun with the challenge ?
I see the challenge clearly, I"m just having difficulty seeing the fun.



Patrick Mucci,

    Isn't that more or less what I said?????

John,


     You too might be that "generous" if they plied you with Filet, Lobster and Party Favors!!!


Steve
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

John Kavanaugh

Re:The Trump Courses
« Reply #67 on: October 11, 2006, 02:57:25 PM »
Steve,

It's redanman we are talking about..can you imagine if they included the tip..

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Trump Courses
« Reply #68 on: October 11, 2006, 03:34:09 PM »
Steve,

It's redanman we are talking about..can you imagine if they included the tip..

Service Compris......no wonder it's a JG 9!! ::)
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Trump Courses
« Reply #69 on: October 11, 2006, 08:00:24 PM »

Patrick Mucci,

Isn't that more or less what I said?????

Yes, I was agree with and reinforcing what you said.

In addition, someone, I believe Redanman, indicated that the green to tee walks were benign.

I seem to recall significant walks from
# 2 green to # 3 tee.
# 4 green to # 5 tee
# 5 green to # 6 tee
# 6 green to # 7 tee
# 9 green to # 10 tee

Is my memory fading or did you find those walks more than benign ?




Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Trump Courses
« Reply #70 on: October 11, 2006, 08:35:04 PM »
 The walks are certainly not benign. They weren't horrid, but nor were they exactly easy.

 What's most interesting is that so many of the tee boxes were spread out and involved measurable elevation changes. Very modern design, with the exception of Tom Doak's recent work at Sebonack and Ballyneal, does very little to protect the older walker or those who neither climb nor descend handily.

  Your memory is fine and intact. It's others here who can't rely on it to help them remember what they just played. Or perhaps its the converse: they don't bother with multiple plays before rendering judgement. After all, isn't it Matt who told all of us he could dissect the core of a golf course with one swift play?

The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Trump Courses
« Reply #71 on: October 11, 2006, 08:42:33 PM »
Steve,

You're correct, the walks to the white and red tees are far more distant than those to the black or blue tees.

As I indicated, I"m anxious to see the new golf course as it seems that the routing will be original and not inherited.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Trump Courses
« Reply #72 on: October 12, 2006, 09:06:54 AM »

I still don't think the walks are out of line, and my opinions expressed on an earlier page of the thread remains unchanged.

How would you describe the walks on the holes I listed ?

Short, medium or long ?




Matt_Ward

Re:The Trump Courses
« Reply #73 on: October 12, 2006, 10:41:34 AM »
Now that the forces of gloom and doom have taken their pot shots a few rebuttals are in order.

Trump National / Bedminster clearly gets a bad wrap because of the nature of its owner and his over-the-top statements on a range of subjects. Clearly, people can't stand "The Donald" and I have to say, if people are a bit more forthcoming, their angst with his Jersey layout has at least SOME connection to the man himself.

Second, the Bedminster facility is clearly angling to become the premier golf location for big time events in the Garden State. Baltusrol GC has firmly maintained that position but Trump's hosting of the '09 USGA Boys and Girls events at the same time (Wilmington did it first) is meant to work the club into the top tier of courses for future considerations of other events.

Anyone who has entered the grounds can fully understand the total scale of the place and the capacity to handle 21st century big time golf events.

At Jersey Golfer we welcome contributions to our pages from people who are interested in general golf writing and specifically in architecture. As Editor my role is to facilitate such contributions and frankly I neither have to, nor want to agree with them 100% for them to be included.

There was no quid pro quo from the club for Bill's comments and frankly such inferences speak volumes to the petty and catty nature of the people who make them.

Now let's talk about the course ...

Bedminster does have the flexibility to handle a broad range of players PROVIDED those players with higher handicaps understand their limitations and play from the appropriate markers. Failure to do that will mean a very tough time on any number of the holes there. For God's sake if someone with a pop-gun tee game tries to play the course from the Black Tees they are clearly in need of a quick visit to Greystone Hospital which is nearby.

For example, even from the blue markers (6,716 yds) the course sports a 73.7 CR and 141 slope.

I have heard the barking that the "forced carries" are beyond the capabilities of lesser players and I thoroughly reviewed the frontal teeing areas -- if carrying the ball 100 yards is too demanding then I concede the point but then one would ned to apply that standard to BB and a host of other similar type courses.

I have a few issues with Bedminster but more about enhancing the strategic elements there now. For example, the 18th would play as a far better hole from the marks at 552 rather than the monsterous 655 yards. The bunkers that are int he driving zone cannot be reached -- save for the Jason Zubacks of this world at 343 yards. Moving the tee forward would allow for more options and bring into play the fullness of the holes from a design perspective.

Let's also debunk the walks involved -- they are not anymore strenuous than what you find with other big scale properties such as Bethpage Black, to name just one example. The course can be walked but clearly for those who prefer -- check that EXPECT -- tees to be IMMEDIATELY ON TOP OF THE PRECEDING GREEN -- then the course is not going to be your cup of tea.

The Bedminster layout is on the same dimension with other big and strong layouts in the metro area -- such as WF / West and BB. Before the cheap seat crowd fires back that I have equated Bedminster as on par with WF / West and BB architecturally please hold your fire and keep from putting your foot into your mouth. Bedminster, however, does have a number of characteristics that allow me to place it in close proximity to such heavyweights. It is muscular and strong and I do concede that the finesse game is really in short supply -- but the same can be said for the Mamaroneck and Farmingdale layouts too.

Credit team Fazio with a dimension of bunkering look and placements -- both fairway and greenside -- that is clearly more demanding and better suited in providing multiple pin areas that are equally defensible.

I've played roughly 70+ TF designs and his work here at Bedminster is not the "mailed-in" garden variety bunkers that are simply poster children for 101 level framing. Getting near the pins can be a very intense proposition when playing there.
If caught in these bunkers and you happen to short-side yourself the recovery play will have to be of the highest order -- as it should be given 60 degree wedges and the like.

In addition, the contours of the green are also properly thought out and done well. There are several different pin placements that can be used and when the greens are at full pace the contours are more than sufficient to thrwart the bold and reckless putter.

I have heard from a few people who have commended the range of par-4's at the course and I concur. Team Fazio has placed a range of par-4's that are quite challenging. The par-4 3rd is a superb hole. The turning point forces the player to work the ball into the proper position -- you cannot simply "grip and rip" with abandon here. In addition, the angle of the green is also well done -- in many ways the tight bunker placement on the left side of the green is something one would find at WF / West.

The uphill 5th at 488 yards is also a first rate effort. Too many architects shy away from uphill holes and I concur with Bill that often the "uphill terrain" is used as nothing more than a drive via carts to other level or downhill areas of a layout. Not here. The angled green and greensite bunker is also well done.

The downhill 6th is the flip of the 5th. You need to work your ball into the proper positioning and the green is simply delicious with any number of unique pin positions.

The back nine features a number of unique holes. The uphill 15th at 427 yards is truly special because of the terrain and the green positioning. Ditto the 16th as Bill mentioned quite accurately with the special shape of the green there.

If there is one area that concerns me is the totality of the par-3's at Bedminster. They are clearly testing in their own way but I would not classify them as being at the same level as the par-4's played.

Last item -- on the "9" rating given to the course. The numbers reflect how the course stacks up against other Jersey courses. It doesn't suggest that the "9" is a number when applied to courses from across the nation. Those who read Jersey Golfer are interested in Jersey course news and the ratings number simply reflects how it would stack up within the Garden State.

Let me also point out for those who have been barking about the setting of Bedminster. The totality of the property and what has been done there is quite impressive. Does that make such places like PV or Plainfield less so? Not at all. The two aforementioned courses are stellar and, IMHO, the two finest courses we have in Jersey.

I can understand the feelings people have for Mr. Trump - but the course in Bedminster should be weighed without confusing the personality of the owner with the finished product that Team Fazio have created.

I have to say that New Jersey is quite fortunate in having two of the top tier TF designs with the likes of Galloway National and TN / Bedminster. For those who love to beat on Trump and Tom Fazio I have to say that in this case the arguments presented don't have the same effect as they do in other situations.

Finally, the quality property does different movements on a range of holes. I would not give the highest of marks in the routing area because there is some repetition in terms of direction -- holes #12 thru #14 and #1 thru #3 -- come quickly to mind. Nonetheless, the routing does mandate shot control of the player in any number of situations throughout the round.

One of the more interesting questions will be how the upcoming second 18 works in tandem with the first course. The layout is being done by Tommy Fazio -- Jim's son -- and the likely completion date is for '08 with some holes available late in '07. I can only hope that the nature of that course will be somewhat different and unique than what one sees today with the Tom Fazio layout.

We shall see ...

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Trump Courses
« Reply #74 on: October 12, 2006, 11:21:11 AM »
Redanman,

I thought the walk from # 2 to # 3 was long, the same for
# 4 to # 5.

# 5 to # 6 and # 6 to # 7 were medium walks.

I'm not so sure that long green to tee walks are an inherent design principle in modern courses.

I can see it when environmental issues determine routing, but absent those issues, is it a lost art ?

Hidden Creek, Friar's Head and others seem to be able to make the green to tee connections.

Perhaps it's a by-product of the concept of isolation, an attempt to create an individual hole that isn't a part of a tightly bound confederation of holes forming a golf course with a high degree of continuity.

Sebonack is an interesting study.
In some cases the tee materializes quite close to the previous green.  On other holes, like # 4 and # 9 a bit of a walk is involved.

Is this not part of the dilema created by excessive length ?

A golf course that measures close to 7,600 yards to 5,100 yards, a 2,500 yard disparity between tees, yet, the greens must service all of the players, and players going from the previous green to their designated tee must suffer the walk.


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