[JESII]

Indeed.  There is a primitive, savage nature to the simplicity of the place.  One must enjoy green-contour-driven strategic golf to love the Old Course.

 If you don't STAY AWAY!  (Like Malone said. )

Mr. Redan,

I believe this may be my favorite line on the site. I never have seen St. Andrews (would clearly love to at some point), but this line of yours about green-contour-driven architecture is really the basis for all of my views on golf courses.

Maybe it can be read in the posts I write, but that is my basic premise or belief when evaluating a course. And at least as important as the contour structure is how they are maintained. Make those greens firm and you really dictate play of the entire hole for success.

[PThomas]

when I finally get to play TOC I hope I do not have an accident on the first tee due to excitement!

being underwhelmed doesn't seem possible, but to each his own, of course

[Jason Topp]

I have written about this phenomenon at length in my book ("A Golfer's Education").

Darren - I really enjoyed that book.  I read it before knowing about this site so I did not know you were the author.  

[Tony_Muldoon]

Increase enjoyment of first-time at TOC:
  1- Get a good caddie
  2- Study the course ahead of time
  3- Walk the course on a Sunday when nobody is
    playing (closed for play).

The only thing I might add is for #1 (My ed.) use the stroke saver and pick your own way around.  I find playing courses with blindness with a caddie is not as much fun as finding my own way.

Who on this group has not imagined what it will be like before they ever set foot in the place. I have often had a day dream that when I finally make it to TOC I will walk past the caddies and join my group of strangers on the first tee. When my turn comes I will unfold an A3 colour copy of Dr Mackenzie's Map and consult it for the perfect line depending on the wind that day. Should help me relax

[Tom Huckaby]

I'm curious how playing with strangers adds fun.

Man for me at great life-changing courses like that, I want to share the experience with friends.  I can understand how perhaps you focus on the course more if you are with strangers...that is, "distractions" are avoided.... but to me that adds a small positive, one outweighed hugely by the joy of sharing the experience with good friends.  If that's a distraction, distract away.

 

[Lou_Duran]

I played the course with my son, an Ausie, and a Kiwi.  The two "strangers" were great guys, also there for the first time, and did not know each other.  They were also as crooked off the tee as any 20 handicappers I've ever seen, and my son and I spent a good deal of time chasing their foul balls.

The day was near perfect weather-wise, with the course setup to its usual tourist standard: short with pins in accessible positions.  The starter and marshalls were at the peak of their game- snooty and acting as they were being imposed upon.  And with my son and I looking for the lost balls mostly belonging to our two playing companions, we had only a little time to "study" the course while being hustled along by the ever-present marshalls (we played in slightly under four hours).

I am sorry to say that TOC did not meet my expectations, and the experience overall was underwhelming.  By contrast, Carnoustie made a much more favorable impression.

Having read Rich Goodale's recent book on TOC and very much liking the town and the R&A, I look forward to going back in the not too distant future.  It is too bad that I will probably never get to play the course at its true length and with a challenging setup.  There could very well be much more there than meets the eye.  However, with the attendant hassles and the hyper-inflated fees, I don't know that many of us will make the opportunity to find out.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Phil, I am stating the obvious but TOC is one of the if not the greatest experience a golfer can have. Much like taking the mini skirt and sweater along with the breasts off a cheerleader, taking all the history etc away from TOC impacts the experience. There are people at my club who think it is no big deal. They are not golfers or students of golf course architecture or place value on the history of the game. I dare say they more often than not do not understand strategic golf as well. Or one could just say they suck and must have attended Ole Miss.

[Tom Huckaby]

Lou:

Sounds like you got a raw deal there.  I can absolutely understand the experience being underwhelming for you given those specifics.

But imagine playing it with three of your best friends, 2nd group off the tee, enough wind to make it a challenge, picking whatever tees you want to play after the first hole, no marshalls anywhere, no waiting.

That would be rather fun, no?

That was my second round there last trip.  It was rather overwhelming.

 

[Lou_Duran]

TH,

What I've gathered from a number of veteran travelers, my experience was closer to the norm than yours.  I understand that things were quite different before the Trust.

BTW, I tried doing the play whatever tees I wanted thing during my round at Pebble Beach, and it was the only time in my life I was threatened with being removed from the course.  My impressions of PBGC are not that great either, and I haven't played it again.

Yes, I can understand how playing under the conditions you describe can have a favorable impact on your perceptions.  Nevertheless, putting aside the richest of golf histories, the out and back routing (sometimes guaranteeing that you will be fighting the wind for all 18 holes), the mostly par 4s configuration, and the not so aesthetically pleasing surroundings do not typically overwhelm.  I guess that for me, cheerleaders doning their miniskirts and sweaters (please do not have them remove their breasts!) is one thing which does not greatly affect my appreciation of more substantive matters.  Maybe my next time around will be similar to yours and my perceptions more in line with this site's popular view.

[Tom Huckaby]

Lou:

This was only a few years ago.  The Links Trust was definitely in charge.  It was just early in the am, before the marshalls were out.

I get your point, though.  

I just wanted to make sure you did understand that it can be different there.

Same goes for Pebble, btw.

TH

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Lou, why does the length and pin placement make yoiu think anything negative. I cannot think of a average pin placement on TOC except in the middle of 9 and 10. No matter where you go on the green it brings things into play. I have played with every sort of player in the rainbow and have yet to have the misfortune to play with one who was not into the moment. I played this June at 5PM on a day when it poured all day. The wind was a gale, at least 7 plus clubs. Every shot was a challenge. Wendy was so cold she walked in after 11 holes. It was the first time around for 3 gents from London. One was a good player and the other two were very poor. We had the time of our lives. We knew we were on hallowed ground and loving the challenge of the moment. The wind fell to about a 3 cluber on 15. We thanked the golf Gods and had a pint together after the round.

[Tim Pitner]

I played the course with my son, an Ausie, and a Kiwi.  The two "strangers" were great guys, also there for the first time, and did not know each other.  They were also as crooked off the tee as any 20 handicappers I've ever seen, and my son and I spent a good deal of time chasing their foul balls.

The day was near perfect weather-wise, with the course setup to its usual tourist standard: short with pins in accessible positions.  The starter and marshalls were at the peak of their game- snooty and acting as they were being imposed upon.  And with my son and I looking for the lost balls mostly belonging to our two playing companions, we had only a little time to "study" the course while being hustled along by the ever-present marshalls (we played in slightly under four hours).

That sounds miserable.  I have no doubt that teeing off in front of the R&A clubhouse would be an awesome experience, but the idea of being herded through TOC by marshals really disturbs me.  That's the antithesis of what I love about links golf.  I understand from Tom H that different experiences can be had.  I don't know, though, that I wouldn't rather just skip TOC and play less trodden courses.  Of course, my friends think I've lost my mind for planning trips to Ireland sans Ballybunion and Scotland sans St. Andrews . . . maybe they're right.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim:

There is much to be said for missing the tourist traps, and unfortunately Lou's experience at TOC is often reported, and tourists are herded through Ballybunion as well.

That being said, well... these courses are fantastic and do need to be seen and played at least once.  If you have the bad experience Lou had, well you still have played the golf course.  And who's to say you won't get lucky and have the good experience I did?

If one makes frequent trips over there, well then of course go off the beaten track, see the hidden gems, avoid the crowds.

But if you have only one shot, well...

A bad experience at TOC is still likely better than an uncrowded round with locals at Wee Sharkahalaigh GC.  A great course does have its own charms, and those don't go away even if one has to put up with negative shit to see them.

TH

[Bill_McBride]

Phil, I am stating the obvious but TOC is one of the if not the greatest experience a golfer can have. Much like taking the mini skirt and sweater along with the breasts off a cheerleader, taking all the history etc away from TOC impacts the experience. There are people at my club who think it is no big deal. They are not golfers or students of golf course architecture or place value on the history of the game. I dare say they more often than not do not understand strategic golf as well. Or one could just say they suck and must have attended Ole Miss.

Classic Bernhardt!  The legend lives.  Geaux Tigers.  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Bill, It hurts to see people have trouble with TOC experience. Thanks for the atta boy. The marshalls there have never bothered me anymore or anyless than marshalls anywhere. If they are a problem I say take dead aim, as Harvey would say, and hit at them.I do not understand people expecting a competition experience when playing on tourist days. Heck enter a competition if one wants to play serious golf. Otherwise take in the moment and thank God you are breathing the same air of the greats of the game.

[Tim Pitner]

Tom H,

I am torn regarding playing the tourist traps--that's why I'm posting my doubts and hoping to elicit feedback from people such as yourself.  I appreciate that there are good reasons why St. Andrews and Ballybunion are popular.  BTW, I probably wouldn't opt to play very obscure courses in Scotland, just some links more off the beaten path than the Open courses.  

A quick story regarding my visit to Ballybunion.  I didn't play it, but I did visit the course.  My wife and I were driving from Galway to Killarney--I had already played Lahinch--and she wasn't up for waiting 5 hours while I played golf.  What can I say, we were virtually newlyweds then.  

I walked into the clubhouse--a large, modern structure totally incongruous with the course--and stumbled on a discussion between an American and one of the pros.  The American was trying to trade some Olympic Club shirts for merchandise in the pro shop.  The mystified pro wasn't going for it--apparently, the Olympic Club doesn't carry a lot of weight in SW Ireland.  The American, who claimed to be a member at Olympic, was making an absolute ass of himself.  I slinked away, ashamed of my countryman.  The outsized clubhouse, tour buses, and jackass Olympian have haunted me ever sense.  It was the exact opposite of my experience at Lahinch (which obviously isn't undiscovered either).  

[Lou_Duran]

By no means do I regret having played TOC.  I was aware of both the positives and the negatives going in, and it just so happened that on my day there I was able to verify most of the latter and only a few of the former.

The highlights of that day was playing with my son with his mother following us together for the only time in our lives, the short time my son and I spent right after the round having a couple of pints and splitting a tuna sandwich as a guest of at a local club, and visting the nearby cementary to pay our respects to the Morrises.  All in all, it was a very memorable day.

Playing to about 6300+/- yards with the pins set up to speed up play did not give me a representative feel of a championship course.  I do understand that one time on a course, specially TOC, is not sufficient, and I hope to be back some day.  I left feeling like I had missed something.

There was nothing inherently negative about playing with strangers- something I normally like to do anyways.  What made it bad was the number of lost balls they had, our upbringing that we help them look for them, and the marshalls pushing us to keep moving (on several occasions actually asking the two chaps to get in the marshalls' carts to get them back in position).

BTW, both my son and I were smitten by North Berwick and also had a great time at Aberdour.  My experiences at both were greater than my expectations going in.





 

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Anyone underwhelmed by the Old Course is really not a golfer.

[Lou_Duran]

Thanks Tommy.  You are one of the boys!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Lou, when are you coming back to SoCal?

[Tim Bert]

I have written about this phenomenon at length in my book ("A Golfer's Education"). I think there are three stages of experiencing the Old Course:

1) Tourist. Everything is exciting, but little is understood. The joys of the course come from its history, not its architecture. (First 1-3 rounds)

2) Heretic. You still don't know where you're going, but you start hitting into lots of bunkers you didn't know were there, and you're frustrated as hell - you actually start hating the course. (Next 4-8 rounds)

3) Convert. Finally the strategy of the course begins to dawn upon you - you learn where the bunkers and all of the good angles are, and you learn how to play the course properly. And it's simply wonderful from that point onward. (Starting anywhere between rounds 6-12)

My plan is to make it through phase one and two on Tiger Woods golf on my laptop.  Then I'll get to play my first real round as a convert.  I'm on phase two already, as I can't seem to figure out which way to aim off the tee.  It doesn't help that my golfer dude hasn't earned enough skill points to hit it more than 220 off the tee.  If only I could par the electronic Road Hole!

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I will be serious on this post. I know Lou well and respect his feelings. He is a good golfer and loves archtecture and the game. I do feel bad about his experience but for a minute do I think that is typical. I think Darren in a way made a case for the more you see the place the more it grows on you. It was love at first sight for me. There are days I enjoy the golf more than others but every momment I spend on that course and in St. Andrews is a blessing from above. The above story is true from June 2006. There are very few people that would even consider playing in those conditions at home. However, I fought all day to play and treasured every moment ,good shot and the other kinds. There is something to learn everytime around the course. Please remember bad touristy things happen at the Lourve as well but who would not call it one of the best art experiences on earth. Those of us who have seen it played it and experienced the majic of TOC should smile and be thankful for how much richer their life is for experiencing it.

[Bob_Huntley]

I hear all sorts of complaints about having to play from ridiculously short markers and the like when playing in Scotland. If the conditions of play are such that you are inconvenienced, may I suggest you tell the starter to stick it uo his jumper and go elsewhere.

Half the people posting here couldn't post an even par round from the ladies tees, so why bitch about the rules at TOC?

Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob Huntley,

You're right on the mark.

There's a strange phenomenon in the U.S.

Everyone wants to play the golf course that was played during the major/tournament, despite the fact that THAT golf course is light years beyond their ability.

[ForkaB]

Bob

Do you play to level par from the Ladies tees at TOC these days?  If not, you should move further forward....

Pat

Could you?  Remember that it is a much more complex course than, say, Gulph Mills.

Rich

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