[John Kavanaugh]

Wayne,

That is all very well if your membership is trolling for new members, we are not. We have a waiting list of some four to five years. In fact the Board has not increased the inititiation fee for something like seven years , much to the chagrin of some members.

Bob

Bob,

Why not go to the powers at your club and tell them of the scandalous behavior and get the comping policy stopped.

[Philippe Binette]

Great deal:

the 2008 US Open will be held on the 41st best public course in America....

Dumb blonde (with Rees Jones modifications to dumb blonde is not even pretty anymore)

[HamiltonBHearst]

Mr. Huntley

Why not charge the raters the accompanied by member green fee? or would that  be too much for raters to bare thus encouraging them to go elsewhere and honor other course with their analysis?

Pretty soon you will have people changing in the parking lot, talking on cell phones and playing in tank top tee shirts.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Yes, Mr. Huntley...by all means heed the warnings of Mr. Hearst..

Bob...you know in your heart that Hammy is correct.  It will be the end of the world as we know it.   Someone might even use the wrong fork.  

I thought you might appreciate the irony below.  

 
Mayor: What do you mean, "biblical"?
Dr Ray Stantz: What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor, real wrath-of-God type stuff.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Exactly.
Dr Ray Stantz: Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies. Rivers and seas boiling.
Dr. Egon Spengler: Forty years of darkness. Earthquakes, volcanoes...
Winston Zeddemore: The dead rising from the grave.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together - mass hysteria.

[Doug Ralston]

And, of course, nothing from the Kentucky sticks. Yet I would wager if all the raters actually played the Kentucky Signature Series, there are a couple that just might become known on this list. Dale Hollow, Hidden Cove, and of course my favorite, the controversial Eagle Ridge. We are just too far off the 'beaten path' to make lists of this sort [though 4 have made the GD 'Best New Affordables' in past few years].

Was surprised how few from Michigan were there. How could St Ives make it and not it's brother Tullymore, or Eagle Eye, or Greywalls for that matter?

[Brian Cenci]

General Impressions:

*World Woods - Pine Barrons is way too high.  In my personnal rankings I've got Greywalls, Pine Needles, Tobacco Road, Forest Dunes, Wild Hoese, Harvester, Tanglewood Park and Arcadia as better courses.

*Arcadia Bluffs is underated on the list and Bay Harbor is WAY overated on the list.

*No Tobacco?

*Old Works?   Forest Dunes and 10 other courses not on this list, blows that course away.

*Would have liked to see Eagle Eye or Greywalls in there.  Much better Michigan courses then the Gailes or St. Ives.

[Anthony Butler]

Mr. Huntley

Why not charge the raters the accompanied by member green fee? or would that  be too much for raters to bare*** thus encouraging them to go elsewhere and honor other course with their analysis?

Pretty soon you will have people changing in the parking lot, talking on cell phones and playing in tank top tee shirts.  

Hammy,

Sometimes people resent what you are implying. The rest of the time they resent what you have clearly stated. I'm sure why you have lowered yourself to participate in a debate on the relative merits of public courses...

BTW-Have not forgotten your kind invitation to Greenwich CC. I'm currently trying to figure out which tank top goes with which pair of cut-offs. I'll let you know when I decide...

*** Was this a typo, or did they not teach you how to spell at Choate. Or maybe it's a cleverly disguised pun on the "right to bare arms" everyone enjoys at Joe Dirt muni.

[A.G._Crockett]

I would be curious to know how Tobacco Road falls short.  Anyone care to venture an expert or nonexpert opinion as to what might be the proximate cause?

[paul cowley]

AG....If I may offer an 'expert' opinion.....its that I also don't have a clue

[Adam Clayman]

Terry, Im not an anti-Chicagoite. I'm just trying help the brainwashed see how they're vocal locals. That is all.

Since this is a discussion of Publics, I felt confident since I was once only allowed access to them. Now that I'm a blood sucking rater, I have only had the pleasure of Butler and Beverly to add to my short list of private courses played. Briarwood, Shoreacres and Idlewild(sp?) being that list.

Also, Terry, Im glad you've lowered your numbers from the 30-40 great area courses to the more believable dozen.

And, In the Greastest American city, a dozen is just too few to have, especially when the land was well suited for more quality golf.

[Andy Troeger]

Was surprised how few from Michigan were there. How could St Ives make it and not it's brother Tullymore, or Eagle Eye, or Greywalls for that matter?

Doug,
I'm almost positive that it is Tullymore that's ranked on the list and not the actual St. Ives course, as it was Tullymore ranked 86th (or whatever it was exactly) last time around. The older St. Ives course isn't bad, but it would be a total shocker to make this list. I think Tullymore should be higher than it is personally.

[Bob_Huntley]

Bob,

Why not go to the powers at your club and tell them of the scandalous behavior and get the comping policy stopped.

John,

I have.

Bob

[Tim Gavrich]

Is the "Pinehills" on the list referring to the Plymouth, MA facility?  If so, which one made the list?

If it is one of those two, I'll be in quite a pickle.  I'm not sure how I'll be able to take less than no stock in the ratings beyond the top 10 or 15.

To have Lake of Isles (from what I've heard), Barefoot-Love, and Pinehills (regardless of the course there) in the top 100 seems erroneous.

[Jim Nugent]

Sometimes people resent what you are implying. The rest of the time they resent what you have clearly stated. I'm sure why you have lowered yourself to participate in a debate on the relative merits of public courses...

BTW-Have not forgotten your kind invitation to Greenwich CC. I'm currently trying to figure out which tank top goes with which pair of cut-offs. I'll let you know when I decide...

*** Was this a typo, or did they not teach you how to spell at Choate. Or maybe it's a cleverly disguised pun on the "right to bare arms" everyone enjoys at Joe Dirt muni.

Lots of posts putting down Hamilton lately.  It's gotten old for me.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Yes, Jim, me too.

But what I'm more weary of is his constant harping that someone, somewhere, is trespassing on his world.   We get it that he doesn't like raters.   We get it that he doesn't like comps.   We get it that nobody should see or play a private course unless Hammy tacitly approves.

Perhaps if Hammy would just drop his "Barbarians at the Gate" routine and actually offer just one single post that elevated the discussion of architecture around here some folks would give him the respect he evidently thinks is his birthright, just like the trust fund.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,

Why don't you address Huntley's concerns...We all know Hammy is some rater posting under a fake name in an attempt to deflect the truth.

[Mike_Cirba]

John,

I totally agree with Bob Huntley.  I'm not aware of many old line, established clubs that do offer comps or access to raters (or others in the industry), unless the powers that be at those clubs are looking to 1) attract a major tournament, or 2) have done significant work of some sort and believe having more raters there might boost their ratings.  

I suspect in the case he's referring to, some within club management wanted to shine some light on the last work of a late, great architect given the quality of his work there in literally unearthing a superb new course from the old one.  

In any case, this should be a club decision like any private matter and each club is free to choose if and how to handle raters, industry comps, non-member access, etc..  

I can understand his point in the simple interest of fairness and equity.

[John Kavanaugh]

I suspect in the case he's referring to, some within club management wanted to shine some light on the last work of a late, great architect given the quality of his work there in literally unearthing a superb new course from the old one.  

Do you find it disgusting that a course would be required or feel pressured to give the golf away in order to shine some light on the last work of a great architect...

[Mike Hoak]

Is the "Pinehills" on the list referring to the Plymouth, MA facility?  If so, which one made the list?

If it is one of those two, I'll be in quite a pickle.  I'm not sure how I'll be able to take less than no stock in the ratings beyond the top 10 or 15.

To have Lake of Isles (from what I've heard), Barefoot-Love, and Pinehills (regardless of the course there) in the top 100 seems erroneous.

The Pinehills course on the list is in Plymouth, Mass and designed by Nicklaus.

[Brian_Sleeman]

Greywalls has only had a few people from GOLF Magazine stop by, hence its position on the "Ten To Watch" list rather than the actual Top 100.

Regarding St. Ives, didn't the original course there win a bunch of "Best New" honors when it first opened?  I'm fairly sure they're referring to that course on the list.

Put me down as another head-scratcher for Tobacco Road's absence.

[A.G._Crockett]

Put me down as another head-scratcher for Tobacco Road's absence.

Seriously, can anyone venture an opinion about what the course might be lacking?  I wouldn't want the job of deciding the order of the top 100, but am really, really curious about this.  There MUST be some perception on the part of the rating panel that there are shortcomings.  

Guesses?

[Jim Franklin]

Are there any Golf Magazine panelists participating on this site? Bueller?

[Mike_Cirba]

Jim,

If memory serves, I seem to recall Tom Doak mentioning that the public course listing within Golf Magazine was not done by their panelists at all, but instead is largely the work and viewpoint of Brian McCallen.  

John,

You wrote, Do you find it disgusting that a course would be required or feel pressured to give the golf away in order to shine some light on the last work of a great architect...

Who is doing this "requiring"?
Who is doing the "pressuring" you speak of?

Look John, every club and golf course has the freedom and choice to make their own rules whether they want anyone there at all, how much (if any) publicity they want, who they want as members, who they want as guests, how much to charge or not.  

The ironic thing is that we're specifically encouraged NOT to play the "old line, established" clubs under the auspices of rating for a number of reasons, but are instead asked to seek out new designs and/or significant revisions because frankly, that's where the action is.  

[John_Cullum]

If there are 100 courses better than World Woods Rolling Oaks, I need to get out more.

[John_Cullum]

And Longaberger has fallen 8 places. Glen is showing some muscle.

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