Underrated...overrated

« **Reply #50 on:** August 08, 2006, 08:24:15 AM »

Underrated:
Silloth on Solway
Notts (Hollinwell)
Boat of Garten

« **Reply #51 on:** August 08, 2006, 08:35:49 AM »

Underrated:

--the vast majority of the people on this site
--any golf course built by Tom Fazio
--shaved humps and hollows

Overrated:

--anybody with more than 1000 posts on this site
--any course not built by Tom Fazio
--lacy, frilly, bunkers

« **Reply #52 on:** August 08, 2006, 09:00:24 AM »

Some of you are, I am afraid, missing the point on this excercise. I didn't ask "what does this site generally underrate or overrate", I asked what each one of YOU thought.

Shivas makes a very interesting statement in a post in this thread on what he feels makes a golf course great. This leads me to create a new topic which should be extremely interesting.

TS

« **Reply #53 on:** August 08, 2006, 10:01:57 AM »

Under

I like the Moraine comment, it is a good one.

The Ocean Course
Crooked Stick
Firestone North

Over

Muirfield Village
Inverness
Doral

Prediction- I think that Erin Hills will end up being over-rated, but that is pure speculation on my part.

« **Reply #54 on:** August 08, 2006, 11:33:13 AM »

Overrated (but very good):

Shoal Creek
Quintero
Cuscowilla
Rustic Canyon

Underrated:

Shinnecock. Yeah I know it's top ten but in my sophomoric, humble opinion, it's significally better than the other highly ranked courses I've played - notwithstanding the absurd 7th.

Mike

« **Reply #55 on:** August 08, 2006, 12:00:02 PM »

Mike - see my posts in the "what makes a course great" thread. I too see complete greatness in Shinnecock... I just don't think it's better than the course across the street, let alone at least 6-7 other truly great courses I've been lucky enough to play. For me it's just too tough, too much - but that's the only tiny "negative" that makes it #7 or 8 instead of higher.

I also think the choice between it and it's neighbor crystallizes what a golfer really wants in a golf course... and it's surprising to me you'd go the other way from me on this.

Not to say you're wrong, mind you... I'm just surprised. Shinnecock is usually preferred by the "test of golf is what it's all about" crowd - at least in the comparison to its neighbor, and other truly great golf courses.

TH

« **Reply #56 on:** August 08, 2006, 12:09:59 PM »

TH: I agree with you that Shinnecock can be overwhelming - when I played it the natural grasses were tall, thick and absolutely impossible to play out of plus the wind was blowing opposite from the normal prevailing direction. The course just beat the hell out of me. NGLA is simply fun and gives you so many options on each hole that you can enjoy it under most any conditions.

What a couple of us did feel was that sitting on the porch at Shinnecock and looking out over the course is very similar to sitting on Ben's Porch at SH and looking out over the course - nirvana.

« **Reply #57 on:** August 08, 2006, 12:13:54 PM »

Quote from: Ted Sturges on August 08, 2006, 09:00:24 AM

Some of you are, I am afraid, missing the point on this excercise. I didn't ask "what does this site generally underrate or overrate", I asked what each one of YOU thought.

Ted -

You actually asked "... 3 courses they consider "underrated" by the golf world[/i], as well as 3 courses they consider "overrated"."

And assuming you mean based on the architectual merit of the course:

Overrated:
ANGC
Firestone
Doral - Blue

Underrated:
MPCC - Dunes
Monarch Bay

« **Reply #58 on:** August 08, 2006, 12:15:37 PM »

Quote from: Mike Cirba on August 08, 2006, 12:20:35 AM

Quote from: Shivas on August 07, 2006, 11:46:33 PM
Mike, c'mon, man, stick your neck out a little...I stuck mine out...

What do you think this group overrates and underrates, given its predispositions (assuming it has any)?

Riviera over LACC North 4 of 5 times. The latter is a George Thomas course that gets a pass, even though most of the great holes Thomas created no longer exist in recognizable form.

Pacific Dunes over Cypress Point, even with the Ocean holes that garner so much photo-op time. PD will outlive all of us while CP actually has some holes that fail to inspire despite the incredible site.

Sand Hills over anything else I've yet seen because it's pretty close to heaven. It's surprising to me that Wild Horse is even mentioned in the same breath, but the unvarnished fact that it is means to me that WH is the best public course in the country.

MIke,

Why is it that when I agree with comments like yours I think you must be a genius? Your take on the the Riviera/LACC comparison are absolutely spot on. The changes to the second, sixth and eighth holes greens at LACC were just plain awful.

Bob

« **Reply #59 on:** August 08, 2006, 12:16:14 PM »

Tom,

I played both courses at the low point in my prolonged slump (hey, it's coming back

) in the rain, wind and cold. I didn't make a par at Shinnecock. I'm also a huge fan of quirk. All that points to favoring The National over Shinnecock. I just can't do it.

I'm not sure Shinnecock is too tough from the appropriate tees. Demanding, absolutely. Only the 7th and 11th are penal. Caveat: the native grasses were very low.

Bottom line: Shinnecock made me want to be a better golfer.

« **Reply #60 on:** August 08, 2006, 12:19:47 PM »

My stab:

Overrated on this site:

Pasatiempo - crowded routing on front nine and mediocre 6th, 7th, 8th, 12th, 13th and 17th holes. The first two par threes on the front are wonderful holes but almost identical. In the winter, the course has been a bog whenever I have played it.

New South Wales - Beautiful site, mediocre 2nd (par three), 3rd (dogleg left par four), 4th (I can't remember it), 5th - beautiful hole but basically a short par five straight over a hill, 10th, and 18th. I cannot remember some of the other holes so there may be more.

Underrated on this site:

I agree with TPC at Sawgrass. I was surprised at how enjoyable the course is.

Classic at Maddens (Minnesota). - I think it is one of the best in the state - despite being tough and penal in some places. Reaction on this site has always been lukewarm among the few who have played it.

« **Reply #61 on:** August 08, 2006, 12:19:49 PM »

Quote from: Bob_Huntley on August 08, 2006, 12:15:37 PM

MIke,

Why is it that when I agree with comments like yours I think you must be a genius?
Bob

Quote

Bob,

I'm going to have your quote taken down from the site, stuffed, bronzed, and placed above my mantle.

I'm heartened you found my comments spot on. Thanks for the kind words.

« **Reply #62 on:** August 08, 2006, 12:21:54 PM »

Quote from: Bogey_Hendren on August 08, 2006, 12:16:14 PM

Bottom line: Shinnecock made me want to be a better golfer.

Extremely well said, Bogey. My experience was similar. On NGLA I could pretend that I might be a good golfer. On Shinnecock I knew that I was not.

« **Reply #63 on:** August 08, 2006, 12:32:45 PM »

Ted Sturges,

Yes, Boca Rio is in Florida, and Ran has provided a write up and picture commentary in the Courses by Country section.

Shivas,

Wild Horse overrated ?

Surely you jest

« **Reply #64 on:** August 08, 2006, 12:40:46 PM »

Quote from: Brian Cenci on August 07, 2006, 11:27:50 PM

I agree regarding Wild Horse....it doesn't get a lot of national publicity in rankings (Golf Digest or Golf Magazine, yet it does in Golfweek). But, people really love it on this site.

Why do you think that is ?

What about Wild Horse would this group find appealing ?

Great architectural, core values ?
Options ?
Strategy ?
The wind ?[/color]

It is a good course but I can only remember 2 holes on the whole course because so many molded into the same.

Brian, how many times have you played Wild Horse ?

I ask that because, if you played it once, perhaps you were more into your game, your round, than you were into the golf course.

I remembered every hole, and was very high on most of them.

I think the criicism of "sameness" which is occassionally leveled toward Sand Hills, is more a product of the area surrounding the golf course.

Out in those wide open spaces, the surroundings seem to be identical, or certainly similar, and that sometimes influences what's directly in front of the golfer.

Wild Horse is a golf course that I could play every day and not tire of it, and, I suspect I'd enjoy it even more on windy days.[/color]

« **Reply #65 on:** August 08, 2006, 12:42:30 PM »

Quote from: Sean Arble on August 08, 2006, 12:30:08 PM

Rich

Spare us your Fifedom follies. Answer the questions. Or will these tidbits be in your next book?

Ciao

Sean

Sean

When you are writing books on courses, ALL courses are perfect!

....and, if I really answered the question honestly I would be disappeared from this site faster than you could say "Curious JJ," and my daughters would never be invited to any Grand Cotillion in the contiguous 48 States.

Rich

« **Reply #66 on:** August 08, 2006, 12:45:11 PM »

Mike Cirba,

I'm glad you've finally seen the light on Hollywood.
What took you so long ?

Bogey Hendren,

I'd agree with you on Shoal Creek.
It was a nice golf course, but, I didn't see how it could attain such lofty ratings.

Mike Benham,

How is ANGC overrated architecturally ?

It remains brilliant.
The routing hasn't changed one iota, nor has the macro architecture.

« **Reply #67 on:** August 08, 2006, 01:10:22 PM »

Mike/Rich:

I guess the difference is that in the overall scheme of things, I need no golf course to tell me I am not that good, or to make me aspire to be better. Any driving range can achieve the exact same end.

The bottom line is this: I expect this from Goodale, the ultra-focused score/match monger. You, however continue to surprise me, Mike. I thought you had far more of a soul. In fact I'm going to just chalk this off to a one-off and continue to believe what I do. Heck, if one's going to err on the difficulty side, Shinnecock is a great place to do it at.

TH

« **Reply #68 on:** August 08, 2006, 01:14:20 PM »

Quote from: Scott Stearns on August 07, 2006, 03:08:55 PM

first three holes of Pebble are c+, b- holes. 11-13 are B+ or so.

Scott,
It's interesting how many people rate courses hole by hole. Ignoring ebb and flow.

Fazio once told Steve Wynn how he didn't like it when the principle wanted the over the top wowsie wow wow golf course. He said by the fourth hole he's burnt out.

Another high profile example of extreme architecture, is what happened to Blackwolf Run's original course. The River-Valley. All the new holes are great, but they don't work as well as a whole. as the original routing. But they sure do get peoples juices flowing, for whatever thats worth?

« **Reply #69 on:** August 08, 2006, 01:15:49 PM »

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on August 08, 2006, 12:45:11 PM

Mike Cirba,

I'm glad you've finally seen the light on Hollywood.
What took you so long ?

Patrick,

I've always been on board. Similar to you, however, I wish that it could be as good as it once was and would love to see more of a restoration to some of those aerials you posted.

I also agree with you about Boca Rio being vastly underrated.

« **Reply #70 on:** August 08, 2006, 01:16:16 PM »

Underrated: The Golf Club

Overrated: Casa de Campo

« **Reply #71 on:** August 08, 2006, 01:20:19 PM »

Sean

I got within a few yards of the "Lady Boys of Bangkok" bus at the Festival Fringe Parade in Edinburgh on Sunday, and it must have rubbed off, as it were......

« **Reply #72 on:** August 08, 2006, 07:22:13 PM »

Tom MacWood,

Agreed about Casa de Campo. I never did understand the fuss. I only played it twice so there's more to learn. And by the way, I couldn't stand the cheating caddies kicking their players balls out of bunkers, trees and the like.

« **Reply #73 on:** August 08, 2006, 08:09:14 PM »

Quote from: Sean Arble on August 07, 2006, 09:45:28 AM

I will only mention courses that I think highly of. Off the top of my head the over-rated courses are:

Swinley Forest

Ouch. That hurt.

« **Reply #74 on:** August 08, 2006, 09:56:33 PM »

Quote from: Wayne Morrison on August 08, 2006, 07:22:13 PM

... And by the way, I couldn't stand the cheating caddies kicking their players balls out of bunkers, trees and the like.

I didn't hit any into the trees or sand, so I wouldn't know. I did lose one at sea...I think his name was Victor.

News:

Andrew Mitchell

ForkaB

T.J. Sturges

Glenn Spencer

Mike Hendren

Tom Huckaby

Jerry Kluger

Mike Benham

Bob_Huntley

Mike Hendren

Jason Topp

Mike_Cirba

ForkaB

Patrick_Mucci

Patrick_Mucci

ForkaB

Patrick_Mucci

Tom Huckaby

Adam Clayman

Mike_Cirba

T_MacWood

ForkaB

wsmorrison

JMorgan

T_MacWood