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John Kavanaugh

Re:What if No Architects Participate in GCA….
« Reply #50 on: June 05, 2006, 08:59:29 AM »
Typo smypo...Let's see some other architectural editors get their name spelled wrong and not have one poster say anything for a couple of days while the thread remains at the top of the board.  It shows a lack of respect for a man that started this hobby so many of you cherish.  

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What if No Architects Participate in GCA….
« Reply #51 on: June 05, 2006, 09:10:02 AM »
New this season

from Action Line Cinema

Tom Doak

starring in

[glow=color,glow width, #characters wide]Tom Doak, Enter the Dragon[/glow]

Jim Thompson

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What if No Architects Participate in GCA….
« Reply #52 on: June 05, 2006, 09:16:29 AM »

Okay, with that last post, we have now hit a new low. Pretty funny though......

Regarding Ron Whitten, while "Everything" is a pretty strong term for how much he gets bashed, its clear with all the GW raters here that GD takes a share of hits.

I think Ron W would say his Burbeck piece stood for itself, no?  He reported the bad feelings of Burbeck’s son, added in the fact that Tillie had a consulting contract only that allowed Burbeck to determine how often he could show up (with an estimate of less than ten times) and then researched the fact that Tillie was on his PGA Tour during construction and noted somewhere in his writings that he didn’t see the course until well after opening.  And yet, the Atlas crowd, believers in all things Golden Age take him to task with fewer facts than that.

I know Ron, and his biggest reason for not posting is that he is more mature  ;) than us, not wasting his time (or his bosses time) on non work pursuits while at work.  I know Ron spends a lot of hours listening to complaints of archies like me who don't make the lists, and doesn't feel he has time to respond to complaints of others and still write his articles, see his family, etc.

I guess I am the reason this thread was started by Ian, and while I appreciate it, respectfully submit that its time to learn whatever lesson you can from Eckstein's post, and move on to discuss architecture...........

Next thread, please......

 

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Cirba

Re:What if No Architects Participate in GCA….
« Reply #53 on: June 05, 2006, 10:17:28 AM »
Typo smypo...Let's see some other architectural editors get their name spelled wrong and not have one poster say anything for a couple of days while the thread remains at the top of the board.  It shows a lack of respect for a man that started this hobby so many of you cherish.  

John,

I have the utmost respect and appreciation for Ron Whitten and have posted my feelings about his work many times here in the past.

Without Whitten & Cornish and the interest they generated in the art through their seminal books I wouldn't be here today, and think that's true for a lot of folks.

Ian Andrew

Re:What if No Architects Participate in GCA….
« Reply #54 on: June 05, 2006, 10:17:45 AM »
Shivas,

You may not come here to learn, but I do.

Your losing some of the key (my opinion) partcipants due to the lack of courtesy and respect. Is the site better or worse without Moran or MacWood?

Nobody is suggesting rules but understand what will happen if people continue to take runs at each other without any worry of recourse.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What if No Architects Participate in GCA….
« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2006, 10:35:12 AM »
Ian,

What do you suggest in the way of recourse?

Ian Andrew

Re:What if No Architects Participate in GCA….
« Reply #56 on: June 05, 2006, 11:05:24 AM »
JES,

Some ideas to help.

If there was an active moderator it would help a hell of a lot, but that isn't going to happen.

I think we should at least all be required to register our full name with a legitimate email that is always accessible on our profile.

All my details are there, if someone has an issue they can contact me immediately to take me to task. That's the way it needs to be.


Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What if No Architects Participate in GCA….
« Reply #57 on: June 05, 2006, 11:15:17 AM »
I agree with Ian — and hope Ran is listening. I have supported this notion for a long while. There is no reason posters here should wear a mask.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2006, 11:15:38 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What if No Architects Participate in GCA….
« Reply #58 on: June 05, 2006, 11:44:06 AM »
Those ideas sound fine, but how many people have you tried to contact that were inaccessible? I only ask because of the 15 or 20 that I have ever sent private messages to, I have never failed to get through. I am sure it happens, but not sure how often.

I would think a more active moderator might help so long as longetivity did not carry more weight than the actual offense. It'd be a tough rope to walk though.

Like most things, I believe leading by example and acting with decency are the solution and in this scenario the example needs to be set by our most prolific posters. When someone goes overboard there should be pretty quick response (both public and private) from at least one of the top 10 or 15 posters. When someone consistently disparages other posters with no supporting information the consequences should be clear.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What if No Architects Participate in GCA….
« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2006, 03:12:10 PM »
I would agree that all posters should use their full name and not hide behind a mask as Eckstein did.

Fairly early on when Eckstein began posting I asked who he was, check it out. He pretty much started negative and it got only worse.

I do not see the purpose of all the negative postings. If someone asks about a course to play, whether it be worthwhile or not, you can always IM that person that it is underwhelming, a nice way of saying not to bother.

The guys who hide behind a mask are free to wreak havock on this site before things are corrected. Who knows their agenda? Lots of disgruntled individuals around, lots of guys who like to stir the pot and get their kicks out of causeing trouble.

If one doesn't like a particular architects work, don't play his courses, but don't be an a**hole.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What if No Architects Participate in GCA….
« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2006, 03:16:49 PM »
 GCA.com would dry up and blow away.
AKA Mayday

John Kavanaugh

Re:What if No Architects Participate in GCA….
« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2006, 03:18:40 PM »
You guys are my friends and you can be honest with me.  Am I the kinda of guy who is referenced on this thread that needs to go.  I personally don't see it..

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What if No Architects Participate in GCA….
« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2006, 09:46:44 PM »
While it would be a huge loss if loss if no architects particpated here, I don't think it would be fatal.  I go back to the old days of the Golfweb forum and while I am not 100% sure, I don't remember any GCAs on the site at that time.

This site, and its predecsessors, Golfweb and the other site that we were on for about 15 minutes (or so it seems), have hugely increased my knowledge of GCA and I am sure that there are hundreds of others who feel likewise.  My trip to Scotland was planned around Dan King's journal of his visit to the Auld Country, in addition to Finnegan's book.

Overmoderated sites can be very annoying as threads get closed quickly and you don't get the serendipitous conversations that we often get here.  

Sure there is a lot of OT discussion but that is fun too as we are all interested in golf and want to discuss other topics.  As others have mentioned this could easily be dealt with by creating other forums on this site, but Ran has chosen not to do so.

I implore those of you writing posts that are highly critical of todays architects to think twice before you hit the post button and remember that discretion is the better part of valour!  All golf courses have some redeeming virutes and a day spent on the golf course is ALWAYS better than a day spent at work, no matter how much you enjoy your job.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What if No Architects Participate in GCA….
« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2006, 11:09:22 PM »
In honor of us architects, I have re-written Wayne's post. Here it is:

- - -

It would be a tremendous loss if loss if no architects particpated here. I might quite my job and seek therapy. Very likely, I would go back to the old days of calling a few friends and trying my best to strike up a conversation about golf architecture.

The Golfweb sucked. In fact, it was missing the element of professional input. That is why GCA is so rich and rewarding.

This site, and its predecsessors, Golfweb and the other site that we were on for about 15 minutes (or so it seems), have hugely increased my knowledge of GCA and I am sure that there are hundreds of others who feel likewise. Frankly, it is the professional golf architects who help bring it along this way — without them, life would be dull and drab here on GCA.

My trip to Scotland was planned around meeting all the architects and wanting to know more about their work.

Sites need the moderation of professionas — it can be very annoying if threads continue to be dominated by know-it-alls who have never practiced design...worse thing that's ever happened to me was a thread where some yo-yo thought he knew about green rootzone. Wow! What a dummy!

Sure there is a lot of OT discussion, but that is fun too as we are all interested in golf and want to discuss other topics.  As others have mentioned this could easily be dealt with by creating other forums on this site, but Ran has chosen not to do so. I am so thankful he embraces architects and their viewpoints.

I implore those of you writing posts that are highly critical of todays architects to think twice before you hit the post button and remember that discretion is the better part of valour!  All golf courses have some redeeming virutes and a day spent on the golf course is ALWAYS better than a day spent at work, no matter how much you enjoy your job.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2006, 11:10:12 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What if No Architects Participate in GCA….
« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2006, 11:36:31 PM »
Forrest,

That post need be accompanied by a photo (doctored, or not, I don't care) of our entire band of professional architect posters in their Kung Fu (as modeled above by Tom Doak) gear with a banner overhead reading "WE SHALL OVERCOME!".
« Last Edit: June 05, 2006, 11:36:56 PM by JES II »

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What if No Architects Participate in GCA….
« Reply #65 on: June 05, 2006, 11:43:34 PM »
In honor of us architects, I have re-written Wayne's post.
You are so right sir.  I stand corrected and I am honoured to be on the same planet as those who practice that most exalted of all professions (fanfare please) The Golf Course Architect.

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What if No Architects Participate in GCA….
« Reply #66 on: June 06, 2006, 01:12:49 AM »

I wonder how many people here are golf course fans vs. golf course architecture fans?  And, is there a difference?

This is a valid distinction, IMO.  For better or worse, I fall into the golf course fan category.  I'm very interested in golf courses and the strategic element of golf, but I'm not nearly as interested in dirt, how to move it or not move it, grass types, or maintenance issues.  I'm not saying these issues shouldn't be discussed here--they should--but if that were the extent of the discussion, it would be an extemely specialized site.  I enjoy hearing about people's recommendations of courses to play (or not play), seeing photos of such courses, and eavesdropping on the arguments of the Australian contingent.  Architects make valuable contributions here, but they're not unique in that regard.  

Perhaps one of the reasons that Tom Doak is given a lot of deference is that, not only has he built some great courses, he's extremely well-traveled and has a background as a course critic.  I say that not to pat Tom on the back, but to suggest that some topics of discussion (e.g., where to play, evaluation of courses) that might stray from golf architecture per se are some of the more interesting topics.  Of course, people should be respectful (to those architects who participate here and to those who do not), but I wouldn't advocate some sort of golden rule where posters are discouraged from engaging in criticism.  

I agree that there is sometimes too much invective and pointless bickering, but I would hate to see the discussion on this site be reduced only to topics like, say, the eyebrows on the bunkers at Merion.  This may be near and dear to the hearts of some, but not everyone gives a damn about such relative minutiae.  

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What if No Architects Participate in GCA….
« Reply #67 on: June 06, 2006, 01:14:40 AM »
Jim,

How's this????  I hope I got all the headshots right. ;D

Jim Thompson

Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:What if No Architects Participate in GCA….
« Reply #68 on: June 06, 2006, 01:44:18 AM »
After the query, I read the first two repsonses, and I felt compelled to respond before reading the rest:

"How tragic, that the doers are being criticized to the point of inertia - how sad."  Then, I remembered that I am subjected to a great deal of criticism daily, and I thought:  "I must be doing something right to evoke such an opinion - at least I am not marginal, or worse, ignored.

My babies (At work) are continually being called ugly for a variety of reasons, usually for pricing.  Yet, it would be a shame if we drove all of the creators away with the thought that the non-doers could have done it better, for less money, and ultimately, because we neglected to notice all of the things that were overcome to produce a happy, healthy child.  If they are finding fault, they have neglected to tell us what they liked.

For Jeff, and all of the other neoclassicists, if you went away from GCA, would you miss the ONE insightful post that made you even better?

From one outside of the tremendous responsibilty of melding Mother Nature's unbespoke beauty into a siren of seduction, we non-makers are not in the arena?

Germans as the old joke goes "Don't like golf because they don't believe that it can be perfected".   I want to be perfect, and struggle mightlily when I forget that I cannot be so.

As The Band sang:  "Do it wrong 'til I do it right."  You guys get so much right that we don't even see or realize.  So, have goals, have dreams and make them come true.

JWK


« Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 02:01:22 AM by James W. "NHD" Keever »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What if No Architects Participate in GCA….
« Reply #69 on: June 06, 2006, 06:56:42 AM »
whoa...nice split Forrest ::).

hey...why don't we just play some of these jokers on one of our turfs in a little match of sorts.

Eckstien can even wear a mardi gra mask....I might even wear a kilt.....oh, and Forrest will appreciate this, when I was wearing my great kilt the other day a big wind came up and much to my surprise I discovered that a kilt can also double as a cape!
« Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 07:18:54 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What if No Architects Participate in GCA….
« Reply #70 on: June 06, 2006, 09:25:19 AM »
This has become a very funny post. Thank you.

I think Tim has a great direction: Golf courses are certainly the focus Ran intended. While this doesn't mean that we avoid the discussion about architects, it is typical of the Eckstein problem — the introduction of personalities thwarted what might have been a good discussion...and that is...mediocre courses/work, notwithstanding the "whos".
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What if No Architects Participate in GCA….
« Reply #71 on: June 06, 2006, 09:38:07 AM »
Priceless JT, absolutely priceless.


Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What if No Architects Participate in GCA….
« Reply #72 on: June 06, 2006, 04:56:11 PM »
Now just imagine what I could do if I ever got a headshot of you Jim. ;D
Jim Thompson

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What if No Architects Participate in GCA….
« Reply #73 on: June 06, 2006, 10:10:51 PM »
Jim...is that little drumming dude you ....I hope not, because you have to be tired....hell, I'm tired just watching him to see if he ever stops.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What if No Architects Participate in GCA….
« Reply #74 on: June 06, 2006, 10:21:34 PM »
How could that be him Paul, he's too busy mocking up Kung Fu posters of you GCA boys to make sure your message is clear...don't f*** with a professional GCA or we're gonna getcha.

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