[Jason Topp]

I love it when the Australians start to argue, particularly now that I have played some of the courses.  I take no particular pleasure in the conflict but it does seem to elicit a lot of interesting information.  

As to number four, I do think one key question is whether a 215 meter carry into the wind is tempting for most golfers.  If it is not, the tee should probably be moved up or (more likely) the golfer should play a more forward tee.  On the day I played, my best shot could not get to the bunker because of the wind and I was not playing the back tee.  While I am by no means the longest player, I hit it further than most, averaging about 250-260 yards according to a mapping program I use.  

Even if you can't get to the bunker, it is an interesting hole into the wind because the weeds on the right come into play and one is tempted to aim left, where the green is visible but it will be nearly impossible to get to a back left pin.   I think I hit driver/4 iron both times, once left off the tee and once behind the bunker.

[tonyt]

On #4, when a player cannot take on the bunker, they can either play short of it or attempt to play left of it, a more difficult landing zone to hold but more elevated to nearer the level of the green and with a better look at the second shot. Not every short par four can boast this significance in angles and rewards from a pair of layups.

A pic from just atop the ridge from the left side, far better a position than from further right well below the bunker. Anyone up here would see their ball head a few more yards left of pic at least.

[Mike_Clayton]

Jason,

It's only tempting on the rare no wind - or downwind - days.
It says 215 -which a lot of people would like to think they can carry - but it plays up to 300 many days which is why it would be a great hole to see Tiger play into a wind.

Last week I hit a pretty good drive at the bunker and didn't reach.

[tonyt]

For comparison, #15.

From the tee. Short of the right fairway bunker, there is more room on the advantageous upper level, but it doesn't look inviting for the timid. The left side spreads even further wider of pic. A guaranteed fairway stat, but the further left you are, the further away, the more blind, and the more horror stuff to carry to the green complex.


From the upper level for those who have taken on the right half and succeeded.


From the left half of fairway, not too far wide. I took the photo from here to demonstrate best case scenario just left of the bunker, with every few yards further left being further hidden behind the high left dunescape. Also from this angle, there is a deep valley fronting the left and left front of the green.


From behind the green, looking back.

[Chris Kane]

Sean, didn't you know that everyone in Australia (except me, of course!) adds 15% when telling strangers on the internet how far they can drive the ball?  

Every course in Australia causes dissention, but Barnbougle is very special.  It is worth all the time and expense to get there, which as a student with limited means is saying something.

[Paul_Daley]

Sean: you've nailed it from afar: trying to sqeeze one up the right of Barnbougle's 15th fairway to drive the green is a "card wrecker" and, frankly, almost not possible for mere mortals. If any sqeezing up the right is attempted, it would only be for positioning. It could also happen following an accidental "push", or a left-hander's sneaky "drag".

Golf is not all about long-hitters, but for them, Barnbougle's 4th hole offers three options from the tee - a high, power fade to the green; a high draw that utilises the right-to-left terrain around the green; and a dead straight bomb. A mate of mine, Ken Collette, drove Barnbougle's 4th in succesive rounds using the latter two options. The high fade is the counter-intuitive option that carries a greater risk, but perhaps not if that is your natural ball-flight pattern. Plus, of course, there are the three lay-up options open to both long-hitters and hackers, namely, to the right, centre, or to the left.

[Mark_F]

Chris,

You really need to develop some consistency of argument.

On the National Moonah vs Gunnamatta thread a long while back, you defined a short par four of anything less than 330 metres, from memory.  

Now 324 isn't short?  

And 330 metres at National Moonah surely equals 324 at Barnbougle?

Mark, I've just back and read the comments you referred to.  That old-style education (as opposed to the modern education of Thommo and myself which teaches no failure) has failed you dismally.  I did not define a short four as 330m or less - here's the quote:

"Moonah suffers because there is only one short four, that 9th hole being an afterthought (and it shows).  There is one hole (from the members tees) under 330m"  

How could you possibly intepret the two sentences as being my definition of a short four?

Chris,

If you don't think those two sentences prove my point then I give up. You mention short four, then 330 metres. Seems clear to me.

But, since you are of the generation that employers and University lecturers complain about not being able to read and/or write properly, that's eminently understandable.

Thommo:

Careful, you are falling into the Chris kane/Shane Gurnett trap of rash judgement.

I shot 85 round there last go, which isn't bad for a crap hacker, is it?   Now if you with your 7 handicap are struggling to shoot that, who is more crap?

[Mark_F]

Last week I hit a pretty good drive at the bunker and didn't reach.

Shane,

Clearly you are going to have to be the sole architectural analyst here now.  

Mike is an old fossil who should forget about the seniors tour next year and head off to the palliative care tour instead, where he might be able to play those 4500 yard courses.

He has no business designing and commenting on courses his puny game can't manage.

[Shane Gurnett]

Mark, no problem - happy to help in any way I can.  

Sean /Paul, in 36 holes there last weekend I missed on fairway (for one lost ball   ) and it was just to the right of the 15th hidden fairway - I thought the shot was perefect but alas no ball to be found when we got up there. Thankfully the "lateral hazard / lost ball" rule there allowed me to drop on close by and still make 4.

Thommo, what are you even doing on this thread? You haven't even seen Barnbougle mate!

[Paul_Daley]

Shane G:

Lucky cout for playing 36 holes at Barnbougle Dunes, but good on you for creating your own luck.   Your comment about losing just one pill for the day reinforces something that I've always thought (and liked) about Barnbougle: the driving challenges are as easy or tough as you desire them to be. Plod the ball around toward the "fat" and you may go several years without losing a ball; take on a line - such as you did, seemingly perfectly on the 15th - and big numbers potentially come into play. We see this particularly at the 4th, 6th, 8th, 12th, 17th and 18th. And let's not forget the terrific par-4 third. I've seen a lot of powerful golfers pick out the "safe" lower-half bunker line, then cut the ball away to perfection on the upper-tier. But challenge them to do so purposefully, and I'd back the house. The beauty about the 15th is that it could even tempt someone to deliberately go down the right side.

Barnbougle Dunes doesn't even remotely resemble Royal Melbourne, visually, but the quality risk/reward driving challenges are errily similar. Surely a similar theme is part of why we love the Old Course.    

[Shane Gurnett]

Paul, I agree. The guys I went away with play 4BBB over two days, and we mix up the pairings to include one high and one low handicapper. This years event was won (easily) by a 10 and 24 marker. Barnbougle, once you get a feel for where to go off the tees, has enough width for everyone. And it gets a little bit easier, and in my view even more enjoyable with every round. Something that, say, the two newer courses at The National for example fails dismally at.

[Andrew Thomson]

Thommo, what are you even doing on this thread? You haven't even seen Barnbougle mate!

notice I only commented on my mate Mark's ability with the bats and not the course.  I avoid discussion go barnbougle like the plague.

[Mike_Clayton]

Mark,

Should I assume you are not serious?

[Chris Kane]

Mike is an old fossil who should forget about the seniors tour next year and head off to the palliative care tour instead, where he might be able to play those 4500 yard courses.

He has no business designing and commenting on courses his puny game can't manage.

Mike doesn't have the ball flight of a 15 year-old girl after four lessons, so he should be fine for the seniors tour.

[Andrew Thomson]

I shot 85 round there last go, which isn't bad for a crap hacker, is it?

What did you have on the back 9?

[Paul_Daley]

Shane: Sounds like a fairly decent format your gang selected.
Yes, knowing where to go at BD, and any course for that matter, never hurts. I've heard that Barnbougle's 1st fairway has been cut back a little on the right. An interesting parallel with The National GC's par-5, 12th hole (Moonah Course) and Barnbougle's opener: you'd rarely see two wider holes, yet both distort the starting line. Your eyeline takes you out over the frontal right dune on both holes, yet the correct line is 40 metres left of that, which, in both instances, starts to approach the middle of these vast fairways. The unthinakable - losing a ball - happens not infrequently on these holes, mainly because golfers screw up the starting line. But only the first outing. After that, it's just shitty golf rearing it's ugly head.  

[Matthew Mollica]

Paul, I agree. The guys I went away with play 4BBB over two days, and we mix up the pairings to include one high and one low handicapper. This years event was won (easily) by a 10 and 24 marker. Barnbougle, once you get a feel for where to go off the tees, has enough width for everyone. And it gets a little bit easier, and in my view even more enjoyable with every round. Something that, say, the two newer courses at The National for example fails dismally at.

Fascinating discussions here. I'm back down at Barny Dunes in July for 2 rounds and it will be the 5th time I've visited the course in the last 2 years. I agree with much of what you say regarding the course Shane, and the notion that the course is too tough, despite the brutal wind, has always amused me. Pick your spot, and be realistic, and there's acres of space.

I note your critical view of the 2 new national courses. Sure, they may be criticised but surely not in regard to fairway width? You need to come and play both in a day with me, and a few others (if you can stomach Ocean). I'd pick on many more facets of design before width, or enjoyment in subsequent rounds over time. Each outing on Moonah sees me learn a new omp or swale I can use for chipping, putting, even landing drives (provided my luck is in.)

MM

[tonyt]

[quote author=Matthew Mollica I agree with much of what you say regarding the course Shane, and the notion that the course is too tough, despite the brutal wind, has always amused me. Pick your spot, and be realistic, and there's acres of space.

Add my name to the list, but I'm not surprised about the feedback of brutality and feel I can explain it.

Firstly, 80% or more of those who call it brutal will have ignored the sucinctly accurate yardsticks as to whom should play from each tee. The back marks as I learnt the hard way are not there for even the more than competent average low teen marker. Anyone off more than 6-8 will need to be on song with the big stick, because from back there, the degrees required to be offline to get in trouble are narrower. And the middle tees are tough for anyone over a 16-20 handicap.

But I will say that in a group of buddies, it is tough to split everyone to two or three tees, and impossible when they are playing to a comp format, depending on the terms.

And secondly, I can tell you from first hand experience that if you truly are having an ordinary day (or in my case two) off the tee, then the course will swallow you whole, even if there is not a breath of wind.


Mentioned above was #12, the forgotten short par four in the debate. A wonderful little part gentle, part mean spirited challenge!

From the tee. The green is perched above the furthest right hand bunker cut into the side of the ridge. The fairway well short is wide, but on an exposed site, the look of it raised high and subtly knolled to look like it repels golf balls is very intimidating, more so than how it plays. Over the left mound through the fairway is the adjoining wide fairway of #11, and a few balls end up there. If you go far enough left to be over this ridge or in the rough of it, then the shot in to the green is a little hairy.



From the middle of the fairway, the remainder of the hole is quite benign. The trick is to calmly get yourself there first. There is a slight valley of sin in front, not enough to challenge the viability of the ground game or make that approach more difficult, but enough to assign the correct amount of disdain upon the timid aerial approach by sending it back a bit. The right hand bunker is deep and is followed by a further slope down well below the green surface, and long is treated similarly. Only short and left aid the gentle look. Overall therefore, the green looks and plays reasonably easy to whomever is in excellent position, whilst taking the player out of position and presenting him with a frightful consequence if he attempts aggressively to stay on top of this hole and misses.



From behind the green looking back.

[Chris Kane]

I shot 85 round there last go, which isn't bad for a crap hacker, is it?  

Did you play in accordance with the rules of golf?

[Shane Gurnett]

Matty,

No, my criticism of the 2 new National courses is mainly reserved for its lack of quality short holes and difficulty for the average player. BD  slays both of them on these points alone by miles.

[Matthew Mollica]

Totally agreed Shane.
When you think of holes like 3,4,12,15 at BBD, there's nothing like that on either of the two new courses at The National...

MM

[Mark_F]

Mike,

Of course I wasn't serious. There are only two things I am serious about. Cinema and Photography. Sorry, three. Add Risotto to the list.

Chris,

You mean there are RULES in golf?
Holy moly.

Thommo,
5,4,5,5,4,4,5 on that bastard ugly 16th,,6,4 equals 42.

[Matthew Mollica]

Matty,

No, my criticism of the 2 new National courses is mainly reserved for its lack of quality short holes and difficulty for the average player. BD  slays both of them on these points alone by miles.

I should add Shane that three of the par 5s on National Moonah (2,7,15) leave any of the par 5's at Barnbougle for dead.

MM

[ed_getka]

Is anyone interested in getting together at Barnbougle the first week in May 2007? David Kelly and I will be in Australia for about 9 days on our golf trip and would welcome some company.

[Joe Hancock]

Is anyone interested in getting together at Barnbougle the first week in May?

We all are....who's springing for this party?  

Joe

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