The 5th is now the 9th stroke hole as a par 5 which has always been way off from reality.

Also, to the comment that the tee will be moved up 50 yards...there is no good place to put a tee up 50 yards...you would be down in a valley.  You could make the white tees the green tees.

The 5th is now the 9th stroke hole as a par 5 which has always been way off from reality.

Also, to the comment that the tee will be moved up 50 yards...there is no good place to put a tee up 50 yards...you would be down in a valley.  You could make the white tees the green tees.

This is correct.

Based on this it is quite possible the hole would have to be altered.

Either the fairway on the right side would have to be extended ala The Bottle hole or the first fairway bunker in the in the series of bunkers which split the fairway next to the optimum driving area would have to be partially eliminated.

Sean - if courses do that, they are going completely against the spirit and intent of stroke indexing - at least how we do it in the US.

Here's the full low-down:

http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/manual/sections/section_17.html

Here's the most relevant part:

*****************
a. Basis of Allocation

Allocate strokes based on play of the course from the tee markers used most often by the majority of club members.

Allocate the first stroke to the hole on the first nine on which the higher-handicapped player most needs a stroke as an equalizer and the second stroke to the hole on the second nine on which the higher-handicapped player most needs a stroke as an equalizer. Alternate in this manner for the full 18 holes.

Generally the longer the hole, the greater the need for the higher-handicapped player to receive a stroke.

 b. Distribution of Strokes

Odd Strokes/Even Strokes
The USGA recommends that the odd-numbered strokes be assigned to the holes on the first nine and the even-numbered strokes to the holes on the second nine. This format equalizes, as nearly as possible, the distribution of handicap strokes over the entire 18 holes, and makes matches more equitable. In a case where the second nine is decidedly more difficult than the first nine, consideration should be given to allocating odd-numbered strokes to the second nine.

Importance of Low Strokes
The first handicap stroke should be allocated so that this stroke is most useful in matches between players of almost equal ability, such as matches involving players with a Course Handicap of 0 and 1, 10 and 11, or 29 and 30. In such matches, the first handicap stroke will be of the greatest importance as an equalizer to the player receiving the stroke.

In allocating the second handicap stroke, matches between players having a slightly greater difference in Course Handicap should be given the most consideration, such as matches involving players with a Course Handicap of 0 and 2, 10 and 12, or 29 and 31. This process should be continued until the first six strokes have been assigned.

Without substantially deviating from the above principles, allocating low-numbered strokes to holes near the end of each nine should be avoided, so that players receiving strokes will have the opportunity to use these strokes before either nine or 18-hole matches are decided. Lower-numbered strokes should not be allocated to the first and second holes of a course in the event that a hole-by-hole playoff is necessary.

******************

As you see, par does play no role.  If a course is giving lower numbers to shorter golf holes just because one says par 4 and another par 5, they are allowing that their membership falls prey in a huge way to Muccian thinking... which would be pretty darn progressive.

TH

Tom Huckaby,

As a golfer with a low handicap and a good ball striker the change in par will affect your mental outlook on the hole, but, probably not your method of play, although you may press and/or play more aggresively or recklessly.

To the higher handicap player, it may well change their play as they have no shot at getting home in two with their typical tacking up the fairway.  Hence, some will probably play the hole more recklessly in an attempt to par the hole.

It's a bad change.

Unfortunately, it would be difficult to take the tee back as it would be lower and have to be moved to the east changing the angle of attack into the fairway.

Bobby Jones liked the concept of a reachable par 5.
A hole that could yield an eagle or a birdie with two exceptional shots.   I see no reason to alter that thinking when it comes to NGLA.

Tom Huckaby,

David Lee Roth replied to a question with respect to the breakup of his band, that perhaps the band moved away from him by standing still.

Analagously, if you're playing with peers in a medal play championship, don't you feel that you're giving up a stroke to the field if you make a 5 on a par 4 ?

Or, are you the one standing still ?  

Tom Huckaby,

I've never played Pasatiempo, so I can't comment.

A collateral question is.

Does the adjustment from par 5 to par 4 place more emphasis on risk-reward in the play of a hole ?

You're looking at the play of a hole prior to teeing off.

Everyone has a game plan prior to teeing off, but,
that game plan is often altered after their drive.

Game plans and strategies change as one plays a hole.

A poor tee shot would not unduly upset a golfer when the hole was a par 5.  I believe a poor tee shot will have a greater effect now that the hole is a par 4.

Tom,
Let it go. Patrick has been saying the same thing for 3 pages now.

You and I have both acknowledged his point of view, but he refuses to acknowledge ours.

Apparently he is not only a stupid golfer…but a close-minded one as well.


I’m still trying to figure out the David Lee Roth analogy???

Tom - my post may have come off a bit hotter than I intended.

Similar to you, I don't buy that he believes what he's saying. But true to form, he's taken a stance, and he's not going to budge.

FWIW - The David Lee Roth analogy was fun...but a bit of a stretch

Tom - He's not doing this to screw with us. He was taken to task on an opinion he expressed.

He just doesn't want to admit that he's wrong

why would strokes be involved?

Cabbell,

If you can find some 10, 15, and 20+ handicaps who will play me for a few quid without the benefit of receiving strokes, I'll pay their guest fees and travel expenses to NGLA.

Tom Huckaby,

I know how strokes are allocated.

Reread my post.

You missed the issue.