Could you get good or decent lies in the fairways?  Or was that a crapshoot?  

I have other pictures from my trip (which didn't make it to Jim on my first mailing), but they pretty much show what I've already showed, so there's no real point in piling on unless anyone really wants to see them.

Brian, I played other courses in Scottsdale during my trip with fairways that were just coming out of dormancy, but they looked and felt a lot better than AS! In truth, it wasn't difficult to find playable lies on the AS fairways, at least for someone who isn't desperate to nip the ball cleanly and get a lot of backspin with his irons, but I wouldn't want to kid myself and say that they were anything more than barely tolerable. What was really bad for me were the greens, which were so sandy that I could hit a driver into the par-3 17th and have it stick within a foot or two of where it landed. (That happened both times I played the hole, btw.) Now, I've played plenty of good courses which are typically well-maintained where they've topdressed the greens and they were sandy and exhibited similar characteristics, so I'm willing to write off my experiences on that front as a one-off - the greens at AS do have a pretty good reputation.

Anyway, I guess the real point is that the conditions are very variable at AS - on some trips you might get lucky and find the greens in excellent shape and the fairways at least borderline playable, on others you might not. There's plenty of interesting architecture to be found, so a lot of posters here will find a trip into the desert worth it, although the design isn't *that* interesting. (I read in another thread where someone praised AS strongly for being "perhaps Doak's most natural course", which to me falls somewhere between wishful thinking and outright self-denial - it's not like perfect maintenance would suddenly morph AS into Pacific Dunes or anything.) But to belatedly answer the Huckster's question, do NOT invite your pampered, non-GolfClubAtlas friends out to AS, because they'll absolutely hate it.

Cheers,
Darren

Did anyone that visited Apache Stronghold seek out the superintendent and ask him about the state of the course and what was being done to remedy problems?  I think we would all benefit from hearing it from the on site expert, the superintendent.  I like meeting the supers on the courses I visit.  They usually are the keepers of historical materials (classic courses) and are happy to discuss everything you want to know and are capable of discussing a whole lot more.  I encourage those that are interested in all matters dealing with golf courses to chat with the superintendents, you'll learn a lot--the first being how little you know    Anybody on a green committee owes it to himself and his club to constantly learn all they can.

One of the many things that Tom Paul has been seeking is to define and educate golfers about healthy and distressed turf, dormancy and dead grasses and how to know the difference.  Tom and I had a real nice explanation by Mike McNulty at Philadelphia Country Club last summer.  As most in the northeastern part of the US know, this was an especially bad summer--high heat, high humidity and lots of rain.  Courses were dying left and right.  Mike showed us what was dead, what was in last stages of dormancy, what was in earlier stages of dormancy and what was healthy.  This was invaluable.  I don't know the situation at Apache Stronghold (as Matt Ward reminds us) but I do know there is a real misconception about the state of turf in general.  We need to understand grasses a bit better and know their lifecycles so that we know what we're looking at.  I know dirt is dirt and you can't get around that if much of the course is in that state, but grasses can look a lot worse than the state of their health is.  Complicating that is the variations in types of grasses.  There's lots to know and I'm glad there are experts out there that are willing to help educate us.  

Darren,

Which other courses did you play that were coming out of dormancy?  I played six other courses and they were all overseeded, to a greater or less degree of success.  We-ko-pa overseed was good, Gold Canyon less so.

Sadly, you seem to have played the greens when they were topdressed.  They were fine in December.  Luck of the draw, or I guess you could call and ask before you go, and save a 2 hour drive.

There were some holes that I thought were mundane 1 and 10 for instance, although even on those I could see some architectural features.  Others like 13 and 6 I thought were world class - 13 especially.

Wayne, I concur with that second paragraph above
 and believe the mis-perceptions that many have is
 why I jumped on the tolerable comment, from Matt.

As for the 98'(?) Doak design; I can honestly say that
 because of playing Apache Stronghold, when I get to a
Doak hole that has some semi-blindness,
 I now challenge that blind area and am
rewarded my frst time around. It's an integral design experience, if one wants to learn what makes the man
(and crew) tick, despite conditions.

Bill,

Perhaps I don't remember 10 clearly.  It didn't make a positive impression on me obviously.  I remember it as flattish and gradually uphill.  I didn't remember the split fairway.

Darren,

I also played the Desert course at TPC, at least the front nine before jumping on a plane.  Sure it was in better condition, but it was overseeded wasn't it.

Different strokes for different folks regarding preferences in holes.  I'm surprised that your friend thought the ridge on 13 was unnatural.  I remember it as pretty large.  Would Doak move that much earth on that site?  Anyway I liked it with a blind fade required off the tee, followed by a long iron draw around another ridge to get at the green, and a wonderful 3 puttable green complex.  Five also was a good long par 4.  Made easier the day I played by the firm  and fast conditions and a 300 yard drive.

You guys are spoiled. I play public courses in worse condition all the time.

Matt, it's just quite possible the reason people cut AS some slack is because of the design, not simply that Tom D's name is attached.

Hope it lasts long enough for me to play it.

P.S. to Craig Edgmund - I think Darren was addressing Craig Sweet, in regards to insinuations.

Craig Edgmand - I was indeed talking to Craig Sweet, as George correctly inferred.

Tom/George, there's a place for "any day on a golf course like AS is better than a day at the office/a day at the rubbish courses I play on at home" sentiment, but I think that sort of attitude kinda misses the point here. There is something wrong with the conditioning at AS...sure, you can have fun there even with the conditions that there are at present, and I would recommend the AS experience to you guys, but that doesn't mean there aren't problems that are worth addressing.

Cheers,
Darren

Darren,

    As Emily Latella used to say "Never Mind" .  

Bill,

Got it, thanks.  For whatever reason the central bunker didn't register.  Maybe the 8 courses in 7 days thing.  As I recall, looking at the layout, I think I hit a low running hook up the left edge and had a relatively short iron in.  So maybe it didn't register because I didn't engage the feature.  I do remember the green being a sort of dell green, although I think it was more accesible from the left side where I was.  Such are the hazards also of only playing a course once.  I didn't get  a picture of it, so I can't refresh my memory.

Based on the layout it looks more interesting than I remembered.  I'll concede the point to you.

I played AS today (Thursday, 4/27).  After rounds yesterday at Chapparal Pines and this morning at The Rim (and looking forward to Silverleaf in tomorrow a.m.), the conditions did strike me as deplorable.  But sometimes it pays to look a little further.

The greens are, for the most part, fine.  The transition to Bermuda fairways is spotty.  It's tough to play the ball down.  The drainage on the course is terrible - most bunkers have soggy bottoms.  I am one who fully believes that too great an emphasis is placed on conditions these days.  However, Apache Stronghold badly needs to get its conditioning act to a competent level, or it is a very real possibility that it will go NLE in the not-too-distant future.  The tribe would do well to consider an experienced management company.

That said, my buddy and I had more fun at AS than we did at either of the perfectly manicured courses we played in Payson.  The options, challenges, playability and demands of Apache Stronghold are invigorating, entertaining and thoroughly enjoyable.  By the third or fourth hole, we were just rolling with it and having a blast.  From that point on, the only time we really paused and shook our heads was at the 10th, the fairway of which is basically lost at this point.

This course can and should be saved.  It is a tremendous golf experience.  But it's going to take some serious effort and serious money to pull it out of the fire.  I plan on developing a feature about the plight of AS, and I'll try to get some people in the place to comment directly on how they view the future.

In the meantime, I paid $40 and don't feel in any way that I didn't get my money's worth.  We had a great time.

TOM

This discussion reminds me of that scene in "Casablanca" where Rick tells Inspector Renault why he came to Casablanca. In the case of Apache Stronghold, the dialogue might go something like this:

MW: How could you let such a wonderful golf course deteriorate so badly?

AS: We expected the area's abundant annual rainfall to take care of our irrigation needs.

MW: What abundant annual rainfall? You're in the desert.

AS: We were misinformed.

Craig,
I'm going to answer your question about growing turf in AZ vs ID.
First, globe AZ is high desert; I believe the elevation is between 4k-5K. It's cold in the winter, hot in the summer and very dry. The water quality is OK by AZ standards, but terrible by standards in the NW US. Globe is in an area where there are pros and cons for the use of either cool or warm season turf. Warm season is the safest bet, but it will not break dormancy until soil temps are in the upper 50's and that could be late May or June-yet the first frost is usually in Sep. Cool season turf takes more $$$ and knowledge because the water, soils, and summer weather are all very difficult challenges. AS is in an area where quality turf does not come easy-throw in poor management and there you are.

While I've never grown turf in ID, I have worked in Central OR. No doubt the weather extremes are greater in ID, but I doubt it's quite as challenging to grow quality turf there as it is in AZ. However, I'll concede that difficult microclimates exist in every region and this type of question could be debated forever. I will say this, IMO, Bend, OR is the easiest place to grow quality turf I've ever seen in the US. Great water, decent draining soils, and a perfect summer climate with almost no pest pressure. No comparison to the challenges in Globe, AZ.