When is cost just too much?

« **Reply #50 on:** March 30, 2006, 12:19:54 AM »

Jordan,

You wrote, "That however, does not change my opinion that it is terrible for people not to be able to experience the best course in the world due to money related issues."

I agree, but there are many things in life that I could not experience because of money issues. I could not finish an education at Oxford because of money issues, I could not afford to run an Aston Martin in the Six Hour race at Kyalami in South Africa because of money issues, I could not get out of a horrendous financial bind after trying to corner a market in South Africa. All the things that we encounter in life that hinder us are related to lack of funds. We overcome them.

Access to affordable golf is the least of our problems.

If you want to play....you will find a way.

Bob

« **Reply #51 on:** March 30, 2006, 12:27:11 AM »

Bob that was well said.

But I still say costs are too much.

Fairways and greens,

Jordan

« **Reply #52 on:** March 30, 2006, 02:30:41 AM »

Quote from: M. Shea Sweeney on March 29, 2006, 10:30:12 PM

Quote from: Sean Arble on March 29, 2006, 05:14:39 PM

I know for myself that too much was The Deuce. The course was good (maybe even great), but the experience was a let down. Whatever a place needs to have that certain something was lacking at Pinehurst.

I mostly only comment on long island topics and stay away from starting discussions. Im sure this has been beat to death, but Sean, I am lucky to spend alot of time in the Pinehurst area and can see where your coming from. My question is that "certain something" the Ocean? It seems that all the high end or 'ridiculous priced courses' are all located with views of the sea.

M.

You are probably correct in large measure. Pinehurst isn't what I would call an ugly course, but it won't win any awards for beauty. Though I have played many inland courses which are no prettier than Pinehurst, but a better experience. Pinehurst delivers on the course front, but is lacking in other wishlist/aesthetic areas one might expect for the price they charge.

The clubhouse is backward. The view coming home is ugly.

There isn't a decent bar in the clubhouse. In fact, for a building that size and that famous the club is woefully designed and/or utilized.

The club is too geared toward selling crap rather than memories.

All in all, Pinehurst has a Disney feel to the place rather than a golf club feel. I didn't care for it and I didn't find the course overly compelling to make up for the club's weak areas. If they were charging $150 I would go back and play to learn the course and not bother with the club. Just change shoes in the lot and bolt after the round. However, at whatever unGodly amount they charge I won't be back.

Ciao

Sean

« **Reply #53 on:** March 30, 2006, 05:02:02 AM »

I think prices have become very inflated over the years, surely as someone pointed out previously, they charge a lot because they can.

I have a golf course guide circa 1978, which includes all the greenfees of the day. £7.50 at Troon is an example and £3.00 at Machrihanish. I’m trying to work out what I was paid as a young waiter back in those days and I’m pretty sure it was about £1.00 per hour. So assuming an acne-ridden dork with zero social skills would earn £5.00 an hour these days that equates to Troon at £37.50 and Machrihanish at £15.00.

Seems good to me.

« **Reply #54 on:** March 30, 2006, 05:20:43 AM »

Quote from: Jordan Wall on March 30, 2006, 12:00:36 AM

That however, does not change my opinion that it is terrible for people not to be able to experience the best course in the world due to money related issues.

Jordan,

According to Ran, you have experienced the best course in the world!

« **Reply #55 on:** March 30, 2006, 07:33:14 AM »

Quote

I am curious about your 51st state comment. Could you elaborate please?

never mind him, he's a just a lefty student

As for the cost of a round at these places, its a simple supply and demand issue. Though I will admit that there are those out there a little less cultured that hold the belief that the cost of the green fee represents the quality of the course.

« **Reply #56 on:** March 30, 2006, 10:51:07 AM »

Mark F
There are a few instructers out there who are not so eaten up with themselves that they charge the thousands fer hour...
For instance, Randy Smith in Dallas still charges less than $200 per hour for his wonderful services..as a member of the PGA hall of fame, he could easily charge the high dollars of others, but his ego is not so inclined.
Even with a hadnful of palyers on the regular tour and a stable of very very impressive juniors, he chooses to be very humble...and the guy is a brilliant teacher...kudos to Randy and those like him!!!!

« **Reply #57 on:** March 30, 2006, 11:20:52 AM »

Quote from: Mike Sweeney on March 30, 2006, 05:20:43 AM

Quote from: Jordan Wall on March 30, 2006, 12:00:36 AM

That however, does not change my opinion that it is terrible for people not to be able to experience the best course in the world due to money related issues.

Jordan,

According to Ran, you have experienced the best course in the world!

look at that shirt-tail...inexcusable

« **Reply #58 on:** March 30, 2006, 11:23:06 AM »

So let me get this straight, when Americans go to the UK to play links golf (the 3 courses at Bandon are the only public access courses that play like a links in the whole damn country) they are "Trophy Hunters". However when Austrailians do it they are on a pilgrimage of architectural purity? Chris admitts to pricing all the Open Venues in the UK; if he just walked those courses he'd save alot of money.

I realize the influx of Yanks has caused green fees to rise astronomically at the better venues in the UK; but can you blame us for wanting to see the best links golf has to offer?

« **Reply #59 on:** March 30, 2006, 11:46:31 AM »

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on March 29, 2006, 12:21:59 PM

Many if not at least 25% of all members of private clubs pay that much per round at much less interesting courses..

That's certainly possibe in the New York area:

with dues over 20k annually at many clubs unless you play 100 rounds a year your likely looking at a 400-500 cost per round. that's why many clubs are looking for members. it's one thing if you've got a family of four active golfers and as a family you're getting in 200 rounds per year but for a one or two golfer household it's a ridiculous cost at some clubs.

« **Reply #60 on:** March 30, 2006, 11:49:40 AM »

Quote from: Mike Sweeney on March 30, 2006, 05:20:43 AM

Quote from: Jordan Wall on March 30, 2006, 12:00:36 AM

That however, does not change my opinion that it is terrible for people not to be able to experience the best course in the world due to money related issues.

Jordan,

According to Ran, you have experienced the best course in the world!

First of all, I didnt pay for that round, nor did my dad.

Second of all, you are correct. Kapalua was a great course and I am very lucky to have experienced it. But for people that cannot afford to play there I feel awful that they will never get the chance to play the course simply to due to money related issues. Even at 300$, that is really steep, whether for Kapalua or Pebble Beach.

Most people on this site probably do not have too many money issues, and that is perfectly fine, but for the people where money is tight, I feel very bad they have to skip some of the best courses in the world. I feel very lucky to have been able to play what I have, and I wish everybody did not have to worry about money and go have fun on some of the worlds best courses.

« **Reply #61 on:** March 30, 2006, 01:37:33 PM »

here's a perfect example: I'm going out to CA next week and cannot pull the trigger on paying the $325 or whatever it is to play Spyglass, even though I've never played

if it was half the price I would , but $325 for a course that a lot of people seem to feel is overrated: I just can't bring myself to do it

« **Reply #62 on:** March 30, 2006, 05:37:12 PM »

Quote from: Pete Lavallee on March 30, 2006, 11:23:06 AM

So let me get this straight, when Americans go to the UK to play links golf (the 3 courses at Bandon are the only public access courses that play like a links in the whole damn country) they are "Trophy Hunters". However when Austrailians do it they are on a pilgrimage of architectural purity? Chris admitts to pricing all the Open Venues in the UK; if he just walked those courses he'd save alot of money.

Pete, I never said that Australians were on a tour of architectural purity different to Americans - as I've tried to point out to Mark its a ridiculous generalisation. Almost all the people I've come across here do the trophy-hunter tours too.

Quote

I realize the influx of Yanks has caused green fees to rise astronomically at the better venues in the UK; but can you blame us for wanting to see the best links golf has to offer?

Not at all. At no stage have I complained about the high prices - its something I have to live with. And the likelihood is that I'll be visiting a lot of courses without playing them - I realised that long ago.

« **Reply #63 on:** March 30, 2006, 05:41:17 PM »

Jordan, if you're in a position where you're spending hundreds of dollars for a game of golf, its likely that you also have access to a myriad of other opportunities which your family's wealth gives you - its these opportunities (ie. good healthcare, education, housing) which would be far more important to those less fortunate than playing golf on a nice course.

Bob Huntley is absolutely right - access to affordable golf is the least of our problems.

« **Reply #64 on:** March 30, 2006, 05:41:41 PM »

Chris,

The way I see it if you go abroad and play the course how could you not be considered a "Trophy Hunter". Whether you have a keen architectural interest or not how is it any different?

We all want to play the best; there are only a precious few who would be content to only see the best.

« **Reply #65 on:** March 30, 2006, 06:12:42 PM »

Chris,

You obviously move in different circles than I.

I have never come across an Aussie in the UK purely doing the trophy hunter thing.

Trophy hunters don't play Carne and Dooks - they play Doonbeg and Old Head.

Trophy Hunters don't play Silloth or Burnham and Berrow - they play Lytham and Birkdale.

Conversely, nearly all the Americans I have (come across)are...

At the risk of more ridiculous generalisations, they are also incapable of playing without either a cart, or a caddie, two non-negotiable essentials.

Aussies don't require caddies, and, aside from arthritic National members, don't require carts either.

« **Reply #66 on:** March 30, 2006, 06:15:18 PM »

Mark -the sad thing is what you see of Americans is likely correct in the majority.

Just do understand there are some of us who need neither cart nor caddie, and who while we might prioritize for famous courses, will play anywhere if the beer is cold and/or the price is right and/or the people are fun.

Which from all I gather, rather just described damn near all of Australia...

« **Reply #67 on:** March 30, 2006, 06:25:06 PM »

Mark, there are a lot of things I don't like about golf in the U.S. (carts, overwatering, etc.), but I think you go too far in your criticism of Americans playing in the UK and Ireland. I don't have any time for people who play courses just to brag that they've played them. To me, that's a trophy hunter. But not everyone who plays 7 courses in 7 days is a trophy hunter.

Like most Americans, I have 2-3 weeks of vacation a year. Absent extraordinary circumstances, I won't spend a month abroad. If I go to the UK or Ireland with my family, I'll likely play a couple of courses squeezed in along with sightseeing. If I go on a guys trip, I'm going to damned well play as many courses as I can. When I return to Ireland, I'll play Lahinch. When I go to Northern Ireland, I'll play Portush and Newcastle. When I go to Scotland, I'll play Dornoch. Am I trophy-hunting? I don't think so--I want to play the courses that appeal to me the most and some of the famous courses fall into that category. Some lesser known courses will as well.

And, I'll walk (obviously), most probably without a caddie.

« **Reply #68 on:** March 30, 2006, 07:06:13 PM »

Quote from: Mark Ferguson on March 30, 2006, 06:12:42 PM

Chris,

You obviously move in different circles than I.

I have never come across an Aussie in the UK purely doing the trophy hunter thing.

Trophy hunters don't play Carne and Dooks - they play Doonbeg and Old Head.

Trophy Hunters don't play Silloth or Burnham and Berrow - they play Lytham and Birkdale.

Conversely, nearly all the Americans I have (come across)are...

At the risk of more ridiculous generalisations, they are also incapable of playing without either a cart, or a caddie, two non-negotiable essentials.

Aussies don't require caddies, and, aside from arthritic National members, don't require carts either.

Mark,

I've played Carne, Dooks, Old Head, and Doonbeg and only Old Head was with a caddie. I thought they were all great experiences. I'm also American. What type of stereotype would you like to cast me in?

« **Reply #69 on:** March 30, 2006, 07:13:33 PM »

Quote

Mark,

I've played Carne, Dooks, Old Head, and Doonbeg and only Old Head was with a caddie. I thought they were all great experiences. I'm also American. What type of stereotype would you like to cast me in?

Posting on his site grants automatic exclusion from such outlandish; yet perhaps accurate, stereotypes

« **Reply #70 on:** March 30, 2006, 07:20:05 PM »

Mark, you probably havn't come across the Australian trophy-hunters because I gather you spend more time at the likes of Silloth than at Birkdale or Muirfield, where those sorts play.

They definitely exist - a relative of mine is doing a "British Open" tour this July - which means attending the Open at Hoylake, then playing the other eight courses on the rota over two weeks, then flying home! Its about as close to the definition of trophy-hunting as you'll find.

« **Reply #71 on:** March 30, 2006, 09:14:12 PM »

Quote from: Jordan Wall on March 30, 2006, 12:00:36 AM

I understand money plays a big role in life and golf and life may be unfair.

That however, does not change my opinion that it is terrible for people not to be able to experience the best course in the world due to money related issues.

The only time I was there, I was able to walk the course for nothing. Playing it would be another matter, but as an architect, isn't walking enough?

Still think it's lovely, but a bit overrated. Just can't live up to all the hype. And for a yearly fee of four times the money, I can play 150 rounds on my home course. Plus the odd foray out and about...

« **Reply #72 on:** March 30, 2006, 11:10:32 PM »

$450 is just too much for a round of golf. It's too much. Hell, $250 is way too much.

Sure people will pay it, and I guess that's what sets the price, but it isn't going to be me.

Prices like that are what keep people from the game. The price of golf, and the demands for maintenance that prices like that bring are hurting golf.

I'm glad I live up here in Nova Scotia, where most of us walk, and the price seems too high at $50 CDN

« **Reply #73 on:** March 31, 2006, 09:53:54 AM »

Quote from: Adam_Foster_Collins on March 30, 2006, 11:10:32 PM

I'm glad I live up here in Nova Scotia, where most of us walk, and the price seems too high at $50 CDN

Adam:

I'd have to agree with you about Nova Scotia. I've played several courses up there at absolute bargain prices. I even played Highlands Links for $38USD a few years back when the exchange rate was a great deal more favorable than it is presently.

Personally, I have never paid more than $145 for a round of golf. The $145 that I did spend was at Daufuskie Island, and that included a 50 minute boat ride (each way), bus transport to the course, greens fees, range balls, ball marker, etc. (well worth the $$$). Having traveled to Hilton Head many times, I have never played Harbour Town since I felt that the cost was unreasonable (~$300). Would I want to play Harbour Town? Absolutely! Do I regret not having played it? Absolutely not!

An analagous scenario could occur when choosing hotels. Why stay at the Ritz Carlton when you can stay at the Hampton Inn? Sometimes you just do because you want better service, features, location, ambience, etc. The difference between hotels and golf courses (besides the obvious) is that you're not always sure what kind of experience you're going to have at a golf course on any given day. Personally, I would rather play well at my local muni, than pay $450 and play like garbage at Pebble. I know many on this board will disagree with this statement, which I can only attribute to my tempermant (and Irish ancestry). I haven't quite reached my golf nirvana, where I'm able to enjoy a round of golf despite playing like crap. However, if I was to pay $450 and play great at Pebble...well that would be a round that you could take with you to the grave. I guess that's the gamble we take when putting down big $$$ to play these expensive courses. It may be the best or worst experience of your life.

Having siad all that...would I pay $450 to play Pebble. Most likely. Hell...I might even pay $100 to play the 8th hole a few times

« **Reply #74 on:** March 31, 2006, 10:11:54 AM »

So....I'm hearing that the game of golf would be better off if we kept all the "trophy hunters" off the course and excluded them from the game?

News:

Bob_Huntley

Jordan Wall

Sean_A

Marc Haring

Mike_Sweeney

Andrew Thomson

Michael Wharton-Palmer

ChasLawler

Pete Lavallee

Jason Blasberg

Jordan Wall

PThomas

Chris Kane

Chris Kane

Pete Lavallee

Mark_F

Tom Huckaby

Tim Pitner

Bill Gayne

Andrew Thomson

Chris Kane

Tim MacEachern

Adam_F_Collins

Chris Pike

Matt MacIver