"Jeffersonville's founding date as 1904. Any remote chance that McGovern/Ross etc did a revision?"

Craig;

I mentioned that 1904 date to Ron Prichard last night. It was the first he'd heard of that but he essentially did say it wouldn't surprise him as some of the green sites et al seemed fairly basic to him when he came in to do the restoration of the course. In other words he felt some of them may not have been that representative of Ross in the era of the late 20s or early 30s and may've preceded that. He said the course did have those multi-set bunkers which he'd also seen at Irondequoit in NY. One of these days I might go down to the County Seat in Norristown and see what I can find on the deeds of that land. I'll call McGovern's daughter again too.

Tom,

There are several "other" green pads, notably on 6 and 7. Any idea as to the history of these? When I played the course prior to the restoration, I remember playing to different greens on 6 and 7. Does Ron know which greens were original or are the greens in their present configuration as they were originally?

These are two very strong holes on the front and it would be nice to know their history of development. Mike and I noted that the 6th green was very close to the property line for a newer hole, so I speculated that it was the original.

According to Ron P Ross's Co was involved with Irondequoit in 1947, a year before Ross died.

Doug,

Let's. For me, it's the most compelling public course in the area. The execution required isn't paralleled much of anywhere.

I remember the corridor on 6 being straighter when I first played it, but I don't think the hole was dead straight either.

I think 17 is now a sharper dogleg than it once was. (I noted this in my blog entry on the course).

7 is also a much better hole in its present configuration.

As I thought about Jrffersonville over the past couple of days I wondered why this course excaped the notice of the people that have compiled the Ross design list over the years and it might just be that Jeffersonville did not have any direct involvement of Donald Ross.

If McGovern did design and build this course in '31 (which is possible) it may well have been without involvement of his boss. I wonder if the WPA was involved.

In that it is described as a course of DJRoss and Associates in the advertising, Mr. Ross must have known of it. Maybe this one was just by an Associate.

 If you use a 5 iron off the tee Paxon Hollow can be one of the most challenging courses you will ever play. The greens are small and well protected. It may be a bad thing for the course that it is the only place I ever shot even par.

    Holes of interest to me are #3 . It is a short par five that doglegs right. Your riskier second shot is blind over the hill that comes down from the right. This can also be the occasion for your first fight !!! If you are successful there is a group on the green to greet you.
 
    #4 is a 150 ish par three that pinches in at the front with a good left to right slope in the green.

  #5 is a short par 4 that tempts you left for the easy approach. But if you go too far left  you end up  in the trees and down the hill.

    #6 can be driven. I don't like the bunker they placed just short of the green. It was more fun to try to go thru the hill on the right and the trees and severe slope on the left. The new bunker leads to more layups.

    #8 Another nice 170ish par three. The green sits up several feet. But, the attempt to carry the green can easily lead to falloffs on all sides.


   #9 has a severe falloff from the fairway plateau. But if you hit it too far right you end up on the side of a hill. A shorter version of #18 Glen Mills. The green has big falloffs left and back.

     #11 --sometimes a 5 but a very challenging second shot uphill to a narrow entrance , a left to right angle to the green, and a deep bunker right. There is also out of bounds to the left.

    #13--invites that cutoff the dogleg shot again. Miss left and it bounds down the hill.

     #15 another fine par three with challenging up and downs.

      #16  another dogleg to test your game-- very well protected green.


   #17 --drop shot 100 yard par three with a creek behind.

     #18- great finishing hole that has often been listed as one of Delaware County's best. There is a creek left off the tee. You can go left of it , but not usually on purpose.. Then the creek comes across the fairway and works up the right side. There is a severe left to right slope in the landing area for the second shot. There was a huge tree that welcomed the bouncing shot on the right and a rising hill on the left of the fairway. The green is two tiered.  

   BTW when I shot par there I bogeyed #18.


  It is hard to believe it has been years since my last visit there.

     I think Matt Ward needs to get out more There are many good public courses in Pa.

"Jeffersonville's founding date as 1904. Any remote chance that McGovern/Ross etc did a revision?"

Craig;

I mentioned that 1904 date to Ron Prichard last night. It was the first he'd heard of that but he essentially did say it wouldn't surprise him as some of the green sites et al seemed fairly basic to him when he came in to do the restoration of the course. In other words he felt some of them may not have been that representative of Ross in the era of the late 20s or early 30s and may've preceded that. He said the course did have those multi-set bunkers which he'd also seen at Irondequoit in NY. One of these days I might go to the County Seat in Norristown and see what I can find on the deeds of that land. I'll call McGovern's daughter again too.

I also went over to Paxon Hollow G.C. yesterday and toured around the course with Hanse & Co's Jim Wagner who's been doing some good looking bunkering over there. Some pretty wild topography on that site. It's owned by its township as Jeffersonville is.

I have not come up with a 1920's era map yet to see if the course existed then.  FYI, the Lower Merion Library system has a bunch of the old Pa RR maps online, many from around 1920. They all seem
to focus on the "Main Line" as opposed to the Jeffersonville/Norristown
area. I'll eventually get a hold of one, so we can see if this course pre-dates Ross or McGovern.

As I thought about Jrffersonville over the past couple of days I wondered why this course excaped the notice of the people that have compiled the Ross design list over the years and it might just be that Jeffersonville did not have any direct involvement of Donald Ross.

If McGovern did design and build this course in '31 (which is possible) it may well have been without involvement of his boss. I wonder if the WPA was involved.

In that it is described as a course of DJRoss and Associates in the advertising, Mr. Ross must have known of it. Maybe this one was just by an Associate.

Michael;

  Is it possible that McGovern did this solo, while under the employ of Ross/while he was still on Ross' payroll?  

  I understand McGovern also did Overbrook CC, in Philadelphia.  What year was this designed/built?  
 
  What I'm getting at is, I wonder if McGovern did do this solo, that if  because he was a designer/foreman for Ross & Associates, the course gets attributed to Ross.  

Michael, I have a question for you.  Why after Ross died did McGovern do design work with Ross listed as architect and himself as associate?  This was the case for the additional nine holes at Irondequoit.  Maybe Ross did the designs before he died and the proposal gained steam in 1950.  Did McGovern do further designs after Ross's death while working for the Ross corporate entity?

One thing that stood out in my second trip around this past weekend was the sophistication of the greens (especially for a public municipal course).

Some of them are downright severe or have some interesting internal contour.

The 11th green stands out in the regard and the contour of the green combined with the hole location affects play from the tee and into the green as well as anything I've seen. The hole location dictates whether or not a shot needs to be flied to the green or whether it can be rolled on, and depending on the wind - the premium placed on such a shot.

Some of the greens are downright wild in contour with 13, 15, and 18 standing out in this regard. All have rejection features that come in and out of play depending on the angle and the hole location.

Mike Cirba and I spent about 15 minutes putting around on 18 devising ways to get to the front left hole location.

Good stuff all around.

Craig,

Sounds like we need to coordinate our golf efforts better.  

Mike Cirba and I teed off around 2, when were you out there?

Kyle-
We went off at 1:30!!

Craig,

I can't believe we missed you!

You didn't happen to be in a foursome, did you?

Yup. Hopefully we didn't hold you up any!

Did you happen to stop for dogs after 8 and then come to the ninth tee to find a twosome there?

Is there a coverup going on here? Inquiring minds want to know. Was there some sort of gca incident that is not being reported?

Nothing to be worried about, go back to your golf, Mr. Malone.