[Mike_Cirba]

Don't have much time at the moment but what I suggested to Archie was simply that the hole could be improved by making it something like 18 at Muirfield, or perhaps 10 at Turnberry, where a center bunker complex below the level of the fairway perhaps 30 yards short of the green makes for a more interesting approach.  Of course, the area between the bunker and the green would need to be kept firm, as it generally is at TD.

I believe such a bunker would create interest in the following ways;

1) For the high handicap, attempting to carry such a hazard brings a real sense of challenge on the final hole of the day.  If they hit a good drive, they would have to decide whether to lay up and hope to pitch and putt for par, or go for it.  

2) Even if they end up failing to make the carry they would still have a shot at a wonderful recovery to end their day.

3) The low handicap or long-hitter would need to consider the bunker as well, particularly if they a) drove into the rough b) are playing into a headwind, or c) attempting a low-running approach into a green that falls away and to the left of the golfer.  

In any of these cases, I believe it heightens the interest of the approach on what is a long final hole, and would provide for a little more heart-pumping drama and opportunity for exciting risk/reward or failing that, the 1 in 10 recovery shot that you talk about for the rest of the week.

btw, amazing how different opinions can be.  While I believe Ted has made some interesting points here, I'd play TD over Pine Hill about 8 to 2.

[Dan Herrmann]

When I asked my wife's opinion on TD, she said she'd happily play it again - that she really liked it.  She said she found the variety interesting, the conditions very good, and the putting surfaces fair but challenging.

Pace of play is an issue, though (where in NJ public golf is pace not a problem)  Laura and I as a 2some played thru a 3some of guys on #10.  We were on #18 tee and a ranger told us they were still on #14.  

By the way - have you ever seen the drawings of the holes.  There's one par 3 with a small tee indicated on the drawing saying something like, "Joe's tee" (I probably have the name wrong).  What's the story with that little tee?

[ed_getka]

Archie,
   Thanks so much for the feedback. I have certainly enjoyed reading your replies. Hopefully when I get out to your course some day we can go out and play together, I would enjoy that.

[Matt_Ward]

Ed / Archie:

I've tried to keep an open mind / re: TD's 18th hole but the idea that "something" is indeed there is nothing more than a magician's trick. The hole is simply a yardage eater meant to provide a long par-4 to conclude the round.

I am a big fan of TD but the closer merely brings one to the end of the round in a fairly nondescript way.

Gents:

The idea that Pine Hill resonates with some people starts first and foremost with the land the course sits upon. Having such unique elevation changes in southwest Jersey is akin to having the Rocky Mountains in that part of the Garden State.

TF could have used the land in a much more elaborate way. The starting two holes are merely set decorations and really don't have any real significance. The 3rd is a superb par-4 but the fairway bunker on the right side is again just another set decoration. Having the bunker placed a bit further down the fairway and angled more towards the tee would make for a much more interesting hole.

More to follow as time runs short now.

[Jerry Kluger]

Has anyone in this discussion played Sea Oaks - I played it after Matt Ward recommended it and I loved it - what do you think?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Archie et al

I agree with general consensus here that 18 could be a much better fininshing hole. Mike's suggestion seems reasonable to me as a mid-handicapper. I've played TD on numerous occasions and my friends and I have discussed this hole a few times. We like TD and the change of pace it offers. We never play there on weekends in season as pace of play seems to be a problem then.

My wife likes the course a lot as she had one of her better rounds there-an 89. Not bad for a mid 20s handicapper.

Steve

[Ted Kramer]

. . .

TF could have used the land in a much more elaborate way. The starting two holes are merely set decorations and really don't have any real significance. The 3rd is a superb par-4 but the fairway bunker on the right side is again just another set decoration. Having the bunker placed a bit further down the fairway and angled more towards the tee would make for a much more interesting hole.

More to follow as time runs short now.

Matt,

I'm always interested in your opinions because you really seem to get out there and see a lot of courses. I also think that you try to be very fair in your presentation of the courses that you choose to discuss.

With that being said, can you tell me what this means:

"The starting two holes are merely set decorations and really don't have any real significance."

While I happen to think that #1 and #2 at PH are very good holes, we don't have to debate their merits . . .I'd just like you to elaborate on the above statement if you don't mind.

And as for #3 and the bunker on the right . . .
That bunker sees an INCREDIBLE amount of golf balls.
I would bet that bunker sees an average of 1 out of every 4 balls hit off of the tee. I think that bunker is in a great spot.

Here is a look at #3 from the tee area:


And here is the description from the yardage book:


From the blue tees the hole plays about 450 yards.
The bunker on the right side of the fairway is about 225-255 yards from the tee.
There are a lot of players who hit the ball about 250 yards with there driver and a majority of people with whom I play hit their tee shots from left to right. That bunker is very much in play for the vast majority of golfers.

And on top of that, if you are going to use the slope of the fairway (from right to left) for extra distance on this long par4, you're going to have to test that bunker a little bit . . .again I think the bunker on the right is very well placed.

-Ted

[Matt_Ward]

Ted:

Fair enough -- the 1st hole at PH is merely a 101 lecel design par-5. It simply is a very easy opening hole devoid of much strategic elements. That's not to say it's a bad hole -- it never really entices me or the people who I have played it with to be anything more than simply ho-hum.

The 2nd is another of the ho-hum holes. Again, it's not bad but it fails to excite me from the multiple times I have played the course. That does change with the 3rd -- it's a solid par-4 that could / should be lengthened given the downhill nature of the hole and the growth from technology / re: club & ball.

Ted -- the bunker on the 3rd catches the short hitters with ease. It doesn't factor into the equation for the stronger player -- and I am not defining stronger player to be akin to Tiger Woods and the like.

The green design at the 3rd is also plain vanilla. You have a large disc that doesn't really DIFFERENTIATE the iron game aspect and that is the crux of what I believe keeps Pine Hill from being even more special than it is.

Keep this mind -- the topography greatly influences people with any course you might play. When I first saw the land with Eric Bergstol and company I was simply blown away by the possibilities that a quality golf course might deliver.

That has not happened in a uniform way with Pine Hill.

Let me also point out that there are instances where TF and company have succeeded. Arguably, the 9th and 10th holes are among the best back-to-back long par-4's you canplay in public golf in NJ -- the only quick comparable duo I can mention immediately would be the finishing two holes at Quail Brook in Franklin Twsp in Somerset County.

The issue for me is that Pine Hill is more about the atmospherics of the terrain -- the totality of the holes often are devoid of strategic implications. They are clearly beautiful because of what the land variation does provide.

The flip side with TD for many is that the existing land does yield little for the uninitiated eye to behold when you first come upon the property. TD explains itself in a rather slow and beguilig fashion. I do agree with some who have posted that the exterior dunes work can be a bit much at times. However, the routing and general details of the holes (save for the lackluster 18th IMHO) makes for a solid combination of holes and strategies. Just take a good look at the par-4 2nd with its bottleneck fairway -- the gorgeous long par-3 3rd and the always fascinating par-5 4th -- nicknamed the Bishop's Purse with the ideal fairway bunker on the right hand side.

Pine Hill is among the best public courses in Jersey but much of that is based on the land Mother Nature provided -- the essence of architecture is to go beyond the mere virtues of the land and carve out golf holes / routing that make such land even more memorable.

[redanman]

Always up for a Pine Hill debate

#1 is disappointing because it is the only creative green on the course.  One hopes to see other greens like it, but no, never again.

#3 Strategically, there is no reason to ever flirt with the bunker on the right.  It catches weak shots.  IT is a redundant bunker, a double penalty.  The hill prevents anything but a rope slice getting home anyway if you were to be right.  THe fairway slopes right to left, slicers can just air at the left fairway bunker and what the hell is that fairway bunker doing on the left side of the fairway except hurting the hack?

Where's the strategy, especially with a nearly table top green?

As for the first par 5 #1 being so neat-o, the 7th is oceans better, actually capturing the "feel" of Pine Valley (That they're trying to play off the cache) just a little bit.

The left bunker is out of reach for most and if it's in reach, hit a 3-wood or something. Just short of the bunker is just over 150 middle.

Pine Hill is a missed opportunity and an opportunistic turn of the phrase.

Since this is the Twisted Dune thread, someone once told Archie where to put the back tee on #9 and he did, the same guy told him 18 as along straight finisher without a centerline bunker in play could be made better by the same, but that never happened.  

[Ted Kramer]

Always up for a Pine Hill debate

#1 is disappointing because it is the only creative green on the course.  One hopes to see other greens like it, but no, never again.

#3 Strategically, there is no reason to ever flirt with the bunker on the right.  It catches weak shots.  IT is a redundant bunker, a double penalty.  The hill prevents anything but a rope slice getting home anyway if you were to be right.  THe fairway slopes right to left, slicers can just air at the left fairway bunker and what the hell is that fairway bunker doing on the left side of the fairway except hurting the hack?

Where's the strategy, especially with a nearly table top green?

As for the first par 5 #1 being so neat-o, the 7th is oceans better, actually capturing the "feel" of Pine Valley (That they're trying to play off the cache) just a little bit.

The left bunker is out of reach for most and if it's in reach, hit a 3-wood or something. Just short of the bunker is just over 150 middle.

Pine Hill is a missed opportunity and an opportunistic turn of the phrase.

Since this is the Twisted Dune thread, someone once told Archie where to put the back tee on #9 and he did, the same guy told him 18 as along straight finisher without a centerline bunker in play could be made better by the same, but that never happened.  

Only on this site will you hear someone call a hole disapointing because it has a creative green. . .

"#1 is disappointing because it is the only creative green on the course.  One hopes to see other greens like it, but no, never again."

Amazing.

-Ted

[Dan Herrmann]

Ted,
I think Bill's point is that the disappointment is that there are not more creative greens, not that #1 is creative.

[Ted Kramer]

Ted,
I think Bill's point is that the disappointment is that there are not more creative greens, not that #1 is creative.

Thanks Dan

-Ted

[redanman]

Dan

BINGO!  

[Matt_Ward]

Dan Hermann:

In your #19 response on this thread you said you would give TD a 3-4 Doak rating number.

I then asked you to provide other Doak ratings numbers for key public courses in New Jersey that you have played.

Still waiting.

If you have other public courses you can reference say in the greater Philadelphia area or thereabouts please provide. I ask this because it gives me a better understanding of how you assign numbers and what priorities you place in order.

Thanks ...

[Ted Kramer]

I just downloaded some pics from my camera and figured I'd take a moment to share a picture of what I thought was a great approach at Twisted Dune. This is the par5 4th. . .



This is a look at the green from about, and I'm guessing here, 250-270 yards. My buddies ball was in that bunker and I took the picture as he was setting up to play his shot. He tried lay-up somewhere safe but either his math or ball striking was off, becasue he ended up in that center-line bunker.

-Ted

[ChrisHervochon]

I hope this thread isn't too old to be posted upon, but I am on Spring Break in Hilton Head (anybody wanting to talk about golf here, I am ALL ears ) and haven't had much time to read this site.  Since Pine Hill is my home course, I kind of wanted to comment on it and perhaps get a response from Ted and Matt.

Number 3 - I think this hole is perhaps the best hole on the course (aside from #7 which I think is incredible, but I am biased). I believe the bunker on the right is in a perfect spot.  
For one, the safe side is the left, and the "proper" side is the right ; therefore, the perfect shot off the tee is a left to right fade which works it's way toward the bunker on the right and against the slope (something which I am not even close to mastering; stupid draws!!!).  From there, the green sort of opens up, whereby, you can avoid the bunker on the right.  Also, with a pin on the left side of the green, which I think is the most "playable" when the greens are running at any sort of speed, a shot played from the right hand side will more readily feed down the slope.  Also, the backstop in the back of the green is also an interesting feature, and would do well to feed a ball back down toward the slope.  Natuarlly, all of these features I have mentioned only work under firm and fast conditions, but, firm and fast doesn't sell memberships   .  


   On another note, I think that #1 isn't the only imaginative green on the course.  What about #2? #13 is also arguable.  
   
   On yet another note, I think it would be interesting if the design on the par-5 14th were reversed in the back left.  That is, if there were a shelf there and not a hollow.  It would provide for more of a risk reward type approach, because it would be easier to 3-putt, so going for the green in two would become more tricky for the 3rd shot.  In addition, it would make for a far more difficult wedge shot 3rd.  I am not saying this should be implemented on this particular hole, I am just stating it as a concept.  Any thoughts?

 If there is anybody who isn't sick of this thread, I'm interested in what you may think.

Cheers,
Chris

P.S. - Ted, school is going pretty well.  Getting ready to graduate in 8 weeks.  YIKES!  I'll be around the Hill practically all summer though, we should definitely play a little golf.  I also recommend bringing more than 4 clubs because I might drag you to the back tees!  HAHA

[Dan Herrmann]

Dan Hermann:

In your #19 response on this thread you said you would give TD a 3-4 Doak rating number.

I then asked you to provide other Doak ratings numbers for key public courses in New Jersey that you have played.

Still waiting.

If you have other public courses you can reference say in the greater Philadelphia area or thereabouts please provide. I ask this because it gives me a better understanding of how you assign numbers and what priorities you place in order.

Thanks ...

Matt - I'm not a Doak scale expert by any means, but let me give it a shot.  Warning - I live out in the Western burbs of Philly (Chester County), so most of the public courses I've played are in PA or MD.

Priorities are uniqueness, memorability, fun factor, "wanting to play again".   Hidden Creek comes immediately to mind.  The more I think about the course, the more I appreciate it.  

To summarize - a great course to me one that grows greater in your mind as time goes on.  

Nothing to do with architecture, but other factors in my enjoyment (not related in my numbers) are conditioning, pace of play, and, yes - pricing.

Sand Barrens - 5
Twisted Dunes - 4
Pine Barrens - 5.5
Architects - 5.5
Morgan Hill - 5
Beechtree (MD) - 7
Bulle Rock (MD) - 7
Wyncote (PA) - 5.5
Hartefeld (PA) - 5.5
Kimberton (PA) - 1
Pickering (PA) - Zero
Links @ Gettysburg (PA) - 5
Glen Mills (PA) - 6

Private
Hidden Creek - 8
Applebrook - 7.5 (hey - I like Hanse courses)
PV - 10 (only walked it)
Merion East - 10 (only walked it)
Waynesboro - 7
Chester Valley - 5.5
Rolling Green - 7.75 and getting better due to tree removal program.
Moselem Springs (a hidden gem) - 7.5

Top of my list
Pacific Dunes - 9.5
Bandon Dunes - 8.5
Bandon Trails - 8
Highlands Links - 8

Purely subjective!

[Jason Mandel]

Dan,

Chester Valley a 7 ?

[Dan Herrmann]

Jason - Hey - I'm still editing...  My mistake :-)

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