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Garland Bayley

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Re:Tiger speaks
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2006, 12:31:27 AM »
Jim,

If athleticism is so important, why hasn't it played the ultimate role in the history of golf. IMHO sensitivity and feel are far more important than athleticism to golf. Perhaps the greatest athlete of modern times, Michael Jordan, plays the game extensively, but doesn't come even close to being pro calibre.

And I don't get how pitchers and shortstops have better hand/eye coordination that hitters?

Put back the linear relation of ball spin to club face angle and see what one hit wonders the modern collegiate bombers are.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2006, 12:34:31 AM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jim Nugent

Re:Tiger speaks
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2006, 01:39:08 AM »
Garland, I think we actually agreed on this.  I don't believe athleticism helps much in golf.  I do believe eye-hand coordination helps.  So do balance, timing, and a bunch of mental factors.  Not sure that shortstops, pitchers or quarterbacks possess more of those attributes than anyone else.  

Shivas, I agree with Ed.  Bet you most pro's do, too.  


Bryan Izatt

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Re:Tiger speaks
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2006, 03:11:30 AM »
Once more back to the original thread,

 "I'd like to see more spin added to the golf ball, so misses would be more pronounced and good shots more rewarded," he said.  This is good for Tiger?  Won't he hit the driver more off the planet?    "Anytime ou bring maneuverability back into the game of golf, it's going to favor the better players who understand how to control the golf ball.  Other than the driver, he can certainly do this better than most everyone     It still matters in firm conditions or in wind. I always like to shape something in there a little bit just because I'm giving myself a fatter area for playing a miss, because it's not a game of perfect. I'd eliminate the 60-degree wedge and set a 56-degree limit.  No problem.  Just open a low bounce 56* wedge open about 4* and voila. Perhaps getting rid of square grooves would be more effective.  But, then if the ball is spinning more, do you need the square grooves?    For one, it would bring more feel back into the game. Because now gus lay up to exact yardages and hit nothig but full shots.  What does laying up to exact yardages have to do with 60* wedges.  So, they lay up 10 yards further back.    Nobody hits half shots anymore. And it would make the short game around the green a lot harder.  Isn't this going to hurt him more; his real competitive advantage is his short game.  Other ways to implement it include getting rid of square grooves too.  Lower spinning balls would too.  How about a ball that spins high off the driver, and low off the wedge?  ;)   If guys didn't have a 60-degree or even a 64-degree wedge to save them, you wouldn't see them being as aggressive going into the greens, because they couldn't short-side themselves as much.
   "It's all about keeping the skill factor. At the moment, equipment has brought everyone closer together. It's harder to separate from the field, without a doubt. It's a challenge."
From Tiger Woods interview 1/06

   I wonder if Tiger's short-siding comment near the end of the statement accounts at least partially for the super low winning scores in recent years?

Voytek Wilczak

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Re:Tiger speaks
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2006, 08:35:55 AM »

Voytek:
Then I must be the anti-Voytek, because I usually can only watch so much when he's on.    (Actually if Tiger's on, that's all you can watch.)  LOL


Bill: I ignore all the sycophants and talking heads on TV (I turn off the sound as I can't stand the sappy Nantz) and I just watch history in the making every time Woods tees it up (majors in particular). I don't want to have to say, 20 years from now, that I missed seeing most of the 25 majors he had won (grin).

Back to the topic.

I think Woods puts the most work among the guys on Tour in trying to understand the physics of the golf stroke and ball flight. He is like Hogan in this respect, but perhaps more "scientific" in his work, and less empirical (he's not digging it out of the dirt, but rather from painstaking swing analysis).

That's why he's not happy that his meticulous work is negated by technology advances. That every Big Tom, Dick and Harry can now bomb it and wedge it.

Because if these guys had to work the ball instead, and pull off shots like Woods does, they would fail.

In other words, if they roll back the ball, if they roll back the clubs - Woods still wins, and wins even more than now.

Garland Bayley

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Re:Tiger speaks
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2006, 09:25:38 AM »
Yeah right Shivas,

And basketball coaches are all real stupid, because they engage in this practice of calling timeouts before freethrows to ice the shooter. After all at the top amateur and pro levels the players have shot millions and millons of times so it is obvious that there is no metal aspect to repeating it.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David Ober

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Re:Tiger speaks
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2006, 09:36:39 AM »
Jim,

If athleticism is so important, why hasn't it played the ultimate role in the history of golf. IMHO sensitivity and feel are far more important than athleticism to golf. Perhaps the greatest athlete of modern times, Michael Jordan, plays the game extensively, but doesn't come even close to being pro calibre.

And I don't get how pitchers and shortstops have better hand/eye coordination that hitters?

Put back the linear relation of ball spin to club face angle and see what one hit wonders the modern collegiate bombers are.


Pitchers, shortstops, quarterbacks. I'm talking about the kids growing up that play those positions. The super studs that can do everything. The kids with the touch, the feel, the strength. The ones who could play any sport if they wanted to and be the star at any of them. They're all great hitters too -- when they choose to play baseball.

Many of them are now playing golf whereas very few of them in the past even gave it a passing thought -- and that can only do one thing for the game: up the level of play at every level. Juniors are better. High school players are better. College players are better. Pros are better.

Of course, it could be 100% the ball/equipment, but I just don't buy that one bit. I think the ball/equipment is a major factor (60%?), but more and better athletes (the ones with great hand-eye coordination) are taking up the game at younger and younger ages. I think you are really sticking your head in the sand if you don't acknowledge that...

Garland Bayley

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Re:Tiger speaks
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2006, 09:55:58 AM »
I guess I just don't get how Fred Funk, Peter Jacobsen, Jay Haas, et. al. have been regularly beating these super athletes that you guys are talking about.

I sure would like to see Bubba and J.B. tee it up with balatas and strut there stuff (if there would be anything left to strut)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David Ober

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Re:Tiger speaks
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2006, 09:58:28 AM »
I guess I just don't get how Fred Funk, Peter Jacobsen, Jay Haas, et. al. have been regularly beating these super athletes that you guys are talking about.

I sure would like to see Bubba and J.B. tee it up with balatas and strut there stuff (if there would be anything left to strut)


Jacobsen is a BIG, athletic man, and Haas isn't small.

But I never said anything anywhere about golfers having to be big guys. That is NOT a plus in golf in my opinion. It's no necessarily a minus, but it's certainly not necessary to play world-class golf.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2006, 09:58:49 AM by David Ober »

Jim Nugent

Re:Tiger speaks
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2006, 12:47:52 PM »
Look, almost none of you guys really have any idea what it's like to compete at the Tour level or even at the serious amateur level.  Believe it or not, there are differences in pure physical skill.  You see it out there if you know what you're looking at.  The problem is that most people who watch the Tour on TV can't tell one swing from another, so they resort to this abject default BS of "it's all mental", basically because they don't have the eye to tell the difference in the physical.

What you guys are really saying is that if you take two guys who are physical equals, the only difference between them is mental.  That, of course, I agree with entirely.  But the mistake I think you're making is that you're simply assuming that all top pros have equal physical talents, and that's simply not so.  It may APPEAR that way to you, but that's because you simply don't have the eye to tell the differences.


Let's get more specific.  Do you think Greg Norman did not have the physical ability to win more than two majors?  

IMO he had the ability to win maybe ten.  But he made so many mental mistakes, he threw away tournaments (major and otherwise) that were his to take.  He eventually became a basket case, who found more ways to lose big tournaments than Sam Snead did the U.S. Open.  

I'll give you two examples.  The British Open that Calc won in a playoff with Norman and a third player.  Greg threw it away on the 2nd to last hole, by crushing his tee shot as hard as he could.  It flew straight, amazingly long -- and right into a pot bunker placed to capture exactly that kind of shot.  He bogeyed the hole, Calc birdied and one hole later MC was British Open champ.  

Second example is one I saw, in the 1993 Tour Championship.  12th hole, last round, Norman leading by about two, sitting in the middle of the fairway, short iron in his hand.  Either nine iron or wedge.  Pin on the right side of the green, sand on the right.  The smart play is to the center of the green.  Almost sure par, and chances for birdie.  But Norman shot for the pin, pushed it into the trap, bogeyed the hole.  I was stunned when I saw it.

Then on 16 he did the same thing, pin hunting with his wedge, dumping it into the bunker, making bogey.  He ended up losing the tournament, but he really just gave it away.  

He threw away three Masters I can think of.  At least one British Open.  He even came close to ruining one of the most perfect rounds ever, his brilliant 64 to win his second Open Championship, by missing a putt under two feet on the 71st.

Mental mistakes were Greg's downfall.  Then he came to believe he was cursed.  I heard an announcer ask him in the mid 1990's if he thought he was owed a major.  Greg gave him an exasperated look and semi-exploded, "I'm owed a helluva lot more than just one."  

Arnie threw away tournaments in unbelievable ways, too.  Did he lose the 1966 U.S. Open because he wasn't good enough physically?  The 1961 Masters when he doubled the last hole?  The 1961 and 62 U.S. Opens?  

Did Van de Velde all of a sudden become a 32 handicapper on the last hole at Carnoustie?

Did Thomas Bjorn suddenly lose his touch in 2003, outperformed by the obviously superior physical specimen, Ben Curtis?  

The examples go on and on.  

Tom Weiskopf was announcing the 86 Masters.  As Jack was making his charge, his co-announcer said, "Tom, what is going through Jack's head right now?"

Weiskopf said, "If I knew what goes through that man's head, I'd have won this thing myself four times."  

I don't think all the pro's have the same physical abilities.  All sorts of differences.  I do think the players that rise to the top are the toughest, mentally and emotionally, out there.  And I think if some of the other guys were that tough, they would have great success, too.    

Garland Bayley

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Re:Tiger speaks
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2006, 06:31:02 PM »
Garland:  how often did icing Rick Barry actually work??

I'm not worried about my credibility after that example. ;)
Do you have the stats that proves it didn't work?

I would guess the only person that really knows how self-doubt affects Tiger is Tiger himself. And I bet he ain't talking about it.

I do know he has admitted to missing shots in the short game more in the last couple of years.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tiger speaks
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2006, 06:46:42 PM »
...
People who believe that "so and so willed the ball into the hole" or "so and so willed his way to victory" are simply falling prey to bad sportswriters' cliches that were no less silly the first time they were written than they are today...
It may be Jack Nicklaus that invented the phrase "willed the ball into the hole". He certainly uses it alot about himself. I don't think he intends anyone to take it literally. I think he intends it to mean that his burning desire to make a putt caused his selfconcious to dial in all the sensitivity and knowledge of his experience to make the shot.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

ed_getka

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Re:Tiger speaks
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2006, 11:01:35 PM »
Shivas,
  Your if you know what your looking at BS is one of the MOST ARROGANT things I have ever read here.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2006, 11:42:56 PM by ed_getka »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Jim Nugent

Re:Tiger speaks
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2006, 01:40:04 AM »
But, Jim, you're missing the point.  I'm not denying the choke factor.  I've been inside ropes a total of 5 times and every single time I choked like hell.  Norman was part unlucky and part flat out gagger.  No doubt.

I'm not saying that there aren't gaggers out there.  I'm saying that Norman gags because he has always had good reason to doubt himself.  So your example doesn't really clarify anything, does it?

What I'm saying is that Eldrick, having always won with the lead and having never blown a major and with all the other accolades, just has no logical reason to doubt himself. Norman did.  Van de Velde choked. Bjorn choked.  Even Arnie and Snead choked.

I'm not saying that choking doesn't happen to the best golfers in the world.  It does.  What I'm saying is that it doesn't -- and shouldn't -- happen to Eldrick right now.

Now, if Eldrick went out and blew a few majors this year and next, just puking them up, and the papers started writing "When did Tiger become a choker?", then the next time he was in the hunt, it would be reasonable for him to question himself.  And if he got it done, I'd be the first guy to say "wow, was he tough!"

You want to give out tough points:  give 'em to Nicklaus in 1980 when people said he was finished and he won 2 majors with a sub-standard short game.  Give them to him in 1986 for the putts on 15 and 17 and for 2 putting 18.  Give them to Tiger for the 3rd amateur and the first two trips around the career grand slam.  Give them to all the less talented guys who somehow -- despite puking their brains out on the inside -- find the will to win a major.  But I have a hard time giving them to the clear #1 player in the world who is a good 1.0 to 1.5 shots per round better than anybody else on the planet for doing what he simply knows he can do.

 

Shivas, you said earlier golf is around 90% physical and 10% mental.  I disagree.  Choking is a prime example of that.  Plenty of guys who have the physical gifts and training do NOT have what it takes upstairs.  Most, in fact.  Tiger's the complete package.  So was Jack.  Few others have gotten the most out of their physical abilities: they could not tame the demons of self-doubt.

Tiger has no reason to doubt himself?  For over two years he sure did.  No majors.  Few wins of any kind.  Blowing leads, losing the scoring and money titles.  And apparently a somewhat serious injury that required him to retool that amazing golf swing of his.  He showed again that he lets nothing stop him, though.  As you affectionately label him, the golfing alien from Planet Perfect.  (Or something like that, right?)

Whether or not icing worked on Rick Barry, I bet it works on a helluva lot of other players.  

BTW, it wouldn't surprise me if golf puts more mental/emotional demands on the player than any other sport.  



 

George Pazin

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Re:Tiger speaks
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2006, 10:47:31 AM »
FWIW, I think you guys are arguing 2 sides of the same coin, you're just labelling it differently.

When someone chokes, Shiv is calling it a physical choke, because ultimately it was the physical side that made the faulty swing. But Ed & co. seem to be arguing that it is the mental side that causes that physical choke.

I think the key thing is that at the Tour level, everyone has a huge amount of physical skill relative to the rest of us. Therefore, the separator for them might truly be mental skills.

I know one thing: my SAT scores might have helped get me into college,  but they are of ZERO value when I'm standing on the tee. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Craig Van Egmond

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Re:Tiger speaks
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2006, 11:16:22 AM »

George,

          Way to cut thru the BS and sum it up nicely!

ForkaB

Re:Tiger speaks
« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2006, 11:50:39 AM »
Shivas

Rick Barry shot free throws underhand, like a girl, even though he had one of the purest outside shots in the game.  If he were playing golf he'd use one of those broom-handled putters.  Anybody want to argue that either of those monstrosities are anything more than monuments to the fact that games are very much more mental than you seem to want to believe.... ;)

...and I say this as an ex-QB, SS and P who has never been able to get below 3 and missed the free throw the only time I got iced....... :)

A.G._Crockett

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Re:Tiger speaks
« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2006, 12:53:25 PM »
Shivas

Rick Barry shot free throws underhand, like a girl, even though he had one of the purest outside shots in the game.  If he were playing golf he'd use one of those broom-handled putters.  Anybody want to argue that either of those monstrosities are anything more than monuments to the fact that games are very much more mental than you seem to want to believe.... ;)

WHAT girl?  Wilt is the only other underhand shooter I remember, though eons ago it was commonplace.  In any event, Barry didn't do it because of mental problems with conventional free throw shooting; he made EVERYTHING!

I'll bet that Rick Barry:
     a. plays golf
     b. uses a standard putter
     c. putts the eyes out

(This is the best kind of bet, because there is no money and proof is doubtful. ;))
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

ForkaB

Re:Tiger speaks
« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2006, 01:18:29 PM »
Shivas

Rick Barry shot free throws underhand, like a girl, even though he had one of the purest outside shots in the game.  If he were playing golf he'd use one of those broom-handled putters.  Anybody want to argue that either of those monstrosities are anything more than monuments to the fact that games are very much more mental than you seem to want to believe.... ;)

WHAT girl?  Wilt is the only other underhand shooter I remember, though eons ago it was commonplace.  In any event, Barry didn't do it because of mental problems with conventional free throw shooting; he made EVERYTHING!

I'll bet that Rick Barry:
     a. plays golf
     b. uses a standard putter
     c. putts the eyes out

(This is the best kind of bet, because there is no money and proof is doubtful. ;))

What girl?  Well........either of my two daughters (12 and 8) who aren't strong enough (yet) to get it to the hoop from the free throw line any other way....  And, yes, I was around eons ago when the one hand (or even two-hand) set shot was more prevalent than the jump shot, although they were before even my time..... :'(

I won't take the Barry bet, but I will bet that:

a.  Shivas plays golf
b.  He uses the broomhandle
c.  Only he knows how well he putts, relative to his physical and mental capabilities. :)

Garland Bayley

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Re:Tiger speaks
« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2006, 01:56:20 PM »
I have to point out that Wilt shot his free throws underhanded exactly because of the mental difficulties he had with free throws.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom Huckaby

Re:Tiger speaks
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2006, 02:00:22 PM »
I have to point out that Wilt shot his free throws underhanded exactly because of the mental difficulties he had with free throws.


AND - he only did that for a very short time.

BTW, Rick Barry is a host on local sports-talk radio here in the Bay Area... he has discussed golf from time to time... In fact, he was a supporter/sponsor of a professional golf league here in CA - interesting concept, fans are encouraged to come out and heckle/yell at opposing team - not sure if it made any traction.  Anyway, Barry was a celebrity guest player at least once - and the reports in the SJ Merc said he was a VERY long hitter (particularly for a Senior player) but that he admitted his game was weak overall because he couldn't putt!

TH

A.G._Crockett

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Re:Tiger speaks
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2006, 02:38:32 PM »
I have to point out that Wilt shot his free throws underhanded exactly because of the mental difficulties he had with free throws.


AND - he only did that for a very short time.

BTW, Rick Barry is a host on local sports-talk radio here in the Bay Area... he has discussed golf from time to time... In fact, he was a supporter/sponsor of a professional golf league here in CA - interesting concept, fans are encouraged to come out and heckle/yell at opposing team - not sure if it made any traction.  Anyway, Barry was a celebrity guest player at least once - and the reports in the SJ Merc said he was a VERY long hitter (particularly for a Senior player) but that he admitted his game was weak overall because he couldn't putt!

TH

Uh-oh... :-[
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Doug Siebert

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Re:Tiger speaks
« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2006, 01:07:40 AM »
All I know is this: Time was, you could play high level Division I college golf as a 0 or 1 handicap. Those days are LONG gone.


I don't believe that has anything to do with how good they are today.

Say you snatch a guy who is a 0 or 1 handicap on a Division I college team in 1985 and bring him through time to 2006, set up him with modern equipment and let him practice with it a few weeks, and have him play on today's Division I courses that have been lengthened by hundreds of yards and therefore have course ratings 2 to 3 strokes higher.  He'll have the same or less club into the greens as he would have before, and thus shoot pretty much the same score, but with the higher course rating his handicap will be +2.

That's despite that guy from 1985 learning with a persimmon driver and not going too crazy swinging it due to the very small margin for error.  Today's guys grew up with more forgiving equipment and are more willing to swing hard.  I hate to think how hard the kids learning today with 460cc heads will be swinging when they are Division I players in 5 to 10 years!

My home course (the U of Iowa's college course) was rated 71.8 from the back tees in in the mid 80s, I believe.  They added some new tees in the 90s and now its 74.1, but it still plays shorter than it did for me in 1985 despite being over 400 yards longer and me being 20 years older.  And yes, my handicap is a few strokes lower, and while I wish I could claim hard work and deserving it is the reason, since I never practice and haven't ever have a lesson, I have to point at the longer and more forgiving equipment as the reason.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 01:09:51 AM by Doug Siebert »
My hovercraft is full of eels.