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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Bunkers, Pits & other Hazards - Let's discuss twenty of them
« Reply #50 on: March 06, 2006, 08:09:49 PM »
Mark,

I'd agree, I think the lack of depth perception makes the golfer uncomfortable.

When you add that to the island nature of the green, I can see how it would be intimidating from 60-80 yards, let alone 130.  Throw in some wind and you have the complete package.

The same effect exists at # 18 at NGLA.
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paul cowley

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Re:Bunkers, Pits & other Hazards - Let's discuss twenty of them
« Reply #51 on: March 06, 2006, 08:49:14 PM »
...aside from the effect that anticipation of playing #17 can create, how one plays the hole can also have a lingering effect on the following one....a confident drive on #18 bolstered from having played #17 well, or something less as an after effect of water immersion.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2006, 08:51:03 PM by paul cowley »
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Bunkers, Pits & other Hazards - Let's discuss twenty of them
« Reply #52 on: March 06, 2006, 09:49:40 PM »
The 17th is "do or die" — that alone makes the green (whatever the size) a difficult target. At the Postage Stamp one can miss the green, but be albe to salvage a score. Not at the 17th. I think it all boils down to the hundreds of thoughts that go through the player's mind. Pete and Alice knew this. It was an evil concept.
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
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Forrest Richardson

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Re:Bunkers, Pits & other Hazards - Let's discuss twenty of them
« Reply #53 on: March 06, 2006, 09:51:22 PM »
Tony — Regarding "roughs" I cannot say when the practice of purposeful delineation began. I suppose it would go hand-in-hand with the invention of the mower...and its use on golf grounds.
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

peter_p

Re:Bunkers, Pits & other Hazards - Let's discuss twenty of them
« Reply #54 on: March 06, 2006, 10:32:25 PM »
  Forrest's Reply #27 is spot on. Golf is a visualization game and your sense of scale is put akilter by the size of the lake.
You never see anything like this (outside of Idaho) more than one week a year. That promotes indecision or affects the confidence level.
  Even thought the green is 8500 sqf, it doesn't play that big.
The surface is usually very hard and I think the back third does not slope towards the player.
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Doug Siebert

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Re:Bunkers, Pits & other Hazards - Let's discuss twenty of them
« Reply #55 on: March 07, 2006, 12:13:25 AM »
Quote from: Mark_Fine on March 06, 2006, 07:37:44 AM
The wind clearly plays a role here.  And the green is not exactly flat.  If you remember that long putt Tiger made; if it didn't hit the hole and could have been wet.  There is some slope (but less than Pete originally wanted).   8500 square feet with nothing around it doesn't look that big when you are standing 130 yards away.  Doug, do your island greens have the water right up against them or is there some rough/bailout area.  What is the total size of each island?


There is some rough around them, but the total area of either one including the green, fringe, rough and cartpaths is almost certainly less than 8500 sq ft.  The greens themselves are probably 5000 sq ft.  As an added bonus the very back of the green slopes away from you, as does the couple yards of rough behind it, as does the concrete cartpath immediately beyond that.  You can guess what happens if you challenge a back pin and are at all long...  I've hit a few 260 yard one-hop 6 irons there ;)

As I said, the tee is somewhat elevated, so you at least can see everything, and the greens look bigger than they are.  I'm sure it would be more nerve-wracking if the tee was not elevated at all, but on the other hand the elevated tee only makes keeping the ball down out of the wind that much more difficult.
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Mark_Fine

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Re:Bunkers, Pits & other Hazards - Let's discuss twenty of them
« Reply #56 on: March 07, 2006, 08:51:50 AM »
Doug,
I've not seen your golf course but I'll take a side bet of a round at Lehigh that the area of your "islands" including rough, is at least 8500 ft2  ;)  Measure it when you get a chance or tell we where the course is and I'll do it for you from an aerial.  The fact that the green at the 17th seems to almost go right to the water's edge adds to the difficultly.  It draws your eye closer to the hazard.  If the green were smaller and there was more "rough" around it, it would probably make the shot easier.  Your eye would move away from the hazard and more toward the target area which is the green.  

This is the same analogy I argue when discussing width of fairways.  Give a good player a narrow target and they will zone in on it.  If you leave the bunkers languishing out in the rough, they will not even be seen.  Widen that fairway so the bunkers are now part of it and all of a sudden they are brought back into the mindset of the golfer.  They have a tougher time focusing as the target is not as clear.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2006, 08:53:16 AM by Mark_Fine »
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Jason Topp

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Re:Bunkers, Pits & other Hazards - Let's discuss twenty of them
« Reply #57 on: March 07, 2006, 12:59:37 PM »
Quote from: Doug Siebert on March 07, 2006, 12:13:25 AM
Quote from: Mark_Fine on March 06, 2006, 07:37:44 AM
The wind clearly plays a role here.  And the green is not exactly flat.  If you remember that long putt Tiger made; if it didn't hit the hole and could have been wet.  There is some slope (but less than Pete originally wanted).   8500 square feet with nothing around it doesn't look that big when you are standing 130 yards away.  Doug, do your island greens have the water right up against them or is there some rough/bailout area.  What is the total size of each island?


There is some rough around them, but the total area of either one including the green, fringe, rough and cartpaths is almost certainly less than 8500 sq ft.  The greens themselves are probably 5000 sq ft.  As an added bonus the very back of the green slopes away from you, as does the couple yards of rough behind it, as does the concrete cartpath immediately beyond that.  You can guess what happens if you challenge a back pin and are at all long...  I've hit a few 260 yard one-hop 6 irons there ;)

As I said, the tee is somewhat elevated, so you at least can see everything, and the greens look bigger than they are.  I'm sure it would be more nerve-wracking if the tee was not elevated at all, but on the other hand the elevated tee only makes keeping the ball down out of the wind that much more difficult.

Having played both, it is interesting to me how different the intimidation factor is.  

Here is a not so great picture of the tee shot at Finkbine from their web-site:


It is 200 yards from the back tee to the green on the right but significantly downhill.  The green is definitely not bigger than the one at the TPC.

Here is a picture from the tee at Sawgrass:



Objectively, the Finkbine shot is much more difficult.  Mentally, the TPC shot is.

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Mark_Fine

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Re:Bunkers, Pits & other Hazards - Let's discuss twenty of them
« Reply #58 on: March 07, 2006, 02:20:10 PM »
Jason,
Can someone measure those islands (is an aerial online available)?  I'll take the same bet with you that those islands are both larger than 8500 ft2.  The green itself may be smaller but I highly doubt that the island is.
Mark
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Jason Topp

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Re:Bunkers, Pits & other Hazards - Let's discuss twenty of them
« Reply #59 on: March 07, 2006, 02:30:53 PM »
Mark - it would be interesting to find out.  Here is a link from Terra Server.  I do not think the hole has changed since 1990:

http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=10&Z=15&X=3096&Y=23068&W=3&qs=%7ciowa+city%7ciowa%7c

Edit:  Based on my rough guestimate, you are right.  The Finkbine islands are much larger.  
« Last Edit: March 07, 2006, 02:37:48 PM by Jason Topp »
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Mark_Fine

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Re:Bunkers, Pits & other Hazards - Let's discuss twenty of them
« Reply #60 on: March 07, 2006, 03:09:42 PM »
Jason,
I'll check it out as well when I have time.  I have to run now.  By the way, you can still come play Lehigh  ;)
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James Bennett

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Re:Bunkers, Pits & other Hazards - Let's discuss twenty of them
« Reply #61 on: March 07, 2006, 04:07:10 PM »
Re the comparison of TPC#17 and Cypress Point #16

One of the other dimensions (I imagine) for the casual player is that missing TPC #17 is 'failure' whilst hitting Cypress Point #16 is 'success'.  Its a different mental challenge - a nine iron vs a fairway wood (or more).

The mental challenge of playing any famous hole is a further personal thing.  You will always remember your own play of that hole forever, so you had better play it well.  I played Gibralter at Moortown last year, by myself, first off and no-one in site.  I was nearly shaking on the tee, but somehow put a good swing on the shot.  That is in my memory banks for years to come.  Now, if that was little TPC #17, and I put it in the drink, well 'how embarassment', but put one in the Pacific on #16 at Cypress, I assume you could live with that.

James B
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Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Doug Siebert

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Re:Bunkers, Pits & other Hazards - Let's discuss twenty of them
« Reply #62 on: March 08, 2006, 12:53:57 AM »
Mark/Jason,

Boy, do I feel stupid!  You are right, those are much larger than I would have bet without seeing the photo in front of me.  I can't ever remember having a putt longer than about 65 feet on either green so I figured them as about 80-85 feet in diameter.  And there is clearly a lot more rough around those greens than I see in my mind's eye when I think about those greens, but photos don't lie!  The only change since those photos were taken would be the removal of the bridge between the greens and the addition of a cartpath running along the back of both greens.

It is hard to measure (wish I could zoom) but I'd have to say the greens themselves are probably not too far from the size of TPC #17, plus the rough that easily makes them much larger.  Obviously "what's the longest putt I can remember having" isn't a green sizing method I'll be using in the future ;)

BTW, if anyone is curious, the tees are just left of the little sherpard's crook in the cartpath (the deadend, not the loop -- look a bit above and left of the SOUTH on the bottom of the aerial)  The alternate tee (which isn't very elevated and only ever plays to the left green these days) is reached by following the shepard's crook path left and up to where it meets the other two paths, and is just left of that point.

When I was saw that photo I was wondering when the hell it was taken, because the course looks so barren and treeless!  I know they've added at least 1000 trees since 1990, but still.  Then I saw it was taken in March, when all but the evergreens and pines were leafless!
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e.irwin

Re:Bunkers, Pits & other Hazards - Let's discuss twenty of them
« Reply #63 on: March 08, 2006, 01:24:32 AM »
"Objectively, the Finkbine shot is much more difficult.  Mentally, the TPC shot is."

Jason,
I worked for Pete & Perry well after Sawgrass but I was around for The Wolf Course at Paiute in LV. I remebered one quote from Pete about island greens that complement your observation on the two courses. "There is a big difference between an island green and a green on a island."
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paul cowley

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Re:Bunkers, Pits & other Hazards - Let's discuss twenty of them
« Reply #64 on: March 08, 2006, 06:52:33 AM »
Erick....welcome aboard and thanks for supplying such a memorable quote!
...oh, and since you indicate you are one, maybe you can tell me something ......what's a llama?  :)
« Last Edit: March 08, 2006, 06:55:41 AM by paul cowley »
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mark_Fine

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Re:Bunkers, Pits & other Hazards - Let's discuss twenty of them
« Reply #65 on: March 08, 2006, 07:17:21 AM »
Doug,
No problem.  You can still come play Lehigh as well  ;)

Erick,
That is a great quote and sums up what we've been trying to say.  
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Forrest Richardson

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Re:Bunkers, Pits & other Hazards - Let's discuss twenty of them
« Reply #66 on: March 08, 2006, 08:25:45 AM »
It would be remiss to not mention Desmond Muirhead's Stone Harbor island green and bunkers during this discussion. Imagine the light he might shed on our topic. Although I have paraphrased him before, I will not even try on this subject! ::)
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

e.irwin

Re:Bunkers, Pits & other Hazards - Let's discuss twenty of them
« Reply #67 on: March 08, 2006, 10:36:46 AM »
Paul C and Mark F,
Thanks for the welcome,
A llama is Peruvian mountain pack animal! Ha, actually I got the name from Ran...I know I can change it but after thinking about it I am a llama! I have been in the golf design biz realitively a short time (10 yrs) and have been behind the scenes for most of it. I worked for Pete & Perry Dye in Perry's office in Denver from '95 to '02 and now out on my own. I still work for Perry on a couple of projects but also have been doing some plan preparation for Renaissance Golf when it is needed. I look forward to the many discussions on golf course architecture.
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Forrest Richardson

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Re:Bunkers, Pits & other Hazards - Let's discuss twenty of them
« Reply #68 on: March 08, 2006, 09:38:33 PM »
No, a llama is a golf hold without mounds (humps.)
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com
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