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Mike Benham

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Re:Shivas' General Theory of Strategy - 100/150 v. 160/210
« Reply #50 on: January 17, 2006, 07:25:31 PM »
... RC is a dynamite golf course for $50 or whatever it was, and I don't see how anyone could not see it that way...you just don't get greens like that for fifty bucks.  

JakaB must be away so I'll ask if you got comp'd?  ;)
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Sean_A

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Re:Shivas' General Theory of Strategy - 100/150 v. 160/210
« Reply #51 on: January 17, 2006, 07:41:19 PM »
Shivas

As I say, every shot is troublesome for a 20 capper.  So on most holes they may as well go for comfort (which is my way of saying get the ball to a position that you can play it from no matter which club you hit) as much as anything.  Strategy is wonderful, but you need skill to execute the strategy.  

Now if you are talking about high cappers attempting shots that low cappers are have doubts about hitting, I agree with you.  But many shots are fairly risk free.  I am talking about the thousands and thousands of holes which are designed to get the punters around.  

Not to point anybody out, but I played with Ace Hutto at Mid Pines.  He is a 20 capper which could hit driver on most holes just as a low capper could.  Hitting a 5 wood off the tee would not have helped his cause at all because the course was fairly forgiving ( a really good course to play if there are varied caps in a group).  Even when there was trouble it wasn't disaster because the ball could usually be found and chipped out.  Perhaps you are envisioning a 20 capper playing a tough course, if so, I think your theory is probably spot on.  

Ciao

Sean
« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 07:49:39 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Doug Siebert

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Re:Shivas' General Theory of Strategy - 100/150 v. 160/210
« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2006, 01:22:22 AM »
See, Sean, I think it applies even more to a 20.  They spray the crap out of their drivers, usually.  

20 handicappers can take this for what it's worth, but if you don't need your Sunday best drive and Sunday best long iron/hybrid to get home on a par 4 (ie, you can comfortably reach the hole), just get the damn ball in the fairway, even if it means a longer approach.  You'll utterly butcher far fewer of these holes that way.


I've played with that same strategy for years, and I think we play a pretty similar game in a lot of ways so that's not surprising.

But I think this statement about 20 handicappers is more useful though, because any 5 handicap who hasn't figured out what we both did is either a short but straight 5 who is probably a whiz with the wedge who could benefit from JES II's viewpoint that you won't make as many birdies from 150 as 100, or is too dumb to deserve to be a single digit handicap :)

In How to Play Your Best Golf All the Time Tommy Armour related a story about a golfer who had never broken 90, and Tommy made a bet with someone that if he could be the guy's advisor/dictator during the round and tell him what club to take and how to play the shot, the guy would break 90.  So when the guy could reach the green with a 3W, Tommy had him laying up with an 8i, that sort of thing.  Guy ends up shooting a 79.

There's a lesson in there for the 20 handicaps.  Not that they should lay up with an 8i from 3W range, but perhaps once in a while, deciding to play a super conservative round where you try to take the highest percentage lowest risk play on every single shot, just to see how little effect taking on the extra risk of hitting longer shots really helps.  The point is, they are a 20 handicap for a reason, and usually it isn't because they three putt every green.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

DMoriarty

Re:Shivas' General Theory of Strategy - 100/150 v. 160/210
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2006, 01:55:40 AM »
Interesting theory and all, but I am sticking with what a number already have said, and what I suggested to Shivas on the seventh fairway.  While the strategy doesnt say much about gca, it does tell us volumes about Shivas' wedge game.  

To Shivas' credit, he espoused his theory walking up the seventh before he hit his approach.  He then proceeded to hit a very good second, leaving himself a long putt from the best angle.  Lynn, who has seen enough of the hole, aptly said something like" you have no idea just how good that approach shot was.  

Nonetheless, however the theory works generally, Shivas' application to RC #7 is a bit too clean, in my opinion . . .
--First, the long-left line is not a narrow penninsula but is actually extremely wide—I haven’t measured but I’d guess at least 40 yds wide at 100 yards from the green.  It is just an around the corner, awkward angle from the tee.  
--Second, the short-right line is not without danger, as David Ober-Da-Fairway-Into-Da-Bush will probably attest (sorry David, I couldnt resist.)  The wash is present left and long, which is not only a potential lost shot, but also causes some [me] to lay up too short and leave much more than 150 into the green.  
--Third, while others may disagree, I don’t think Shivas had the “’worse’ angle.”  Rather I think he had the best angle for that particular pin, at least the best angle for creating a reasonable expectation of a two putt. The catch is the distance—better angle but further away.  I don’t think David Kelly plays left for the angle, but because he can get closer, and then get it somewhere up on the green so he can try to two-putt.

See that is what is interesting about the Shivas Theory to me-- the week before I had a mirror image of this discussion with David K. and Lynn S.   With any right pin, I tend to try to drive to exactly where Shivas ended up.  If I remember correctly David and Lynn argued that the green was just too difficult and/or the second shot too demanding to purposefully leave a mid-iron as opposed to wedge to the green.  I don’t think they were necessarily thinking of birdies, just survival.  

A few other random comments about the round . . .
. . . On the second hole Shivas did indeed drive it onto the apron.  Unfortunately, it was the apron behind the 5th green.   From there he had about 150 or 160 and hit a good iron shot and made a nice putt.  
. . .  Except for a few rusty-swing mishaps, Shivas drove the ball remarkably well.  Even most of his misses were straight.  This makes two rounds in a row I’ve played with him where he hit the ball straight.  If he keeps it up I am going to have to recommend that his Seve Fan Club membership be revoked.
. . .Hmmmm . . .  I don’t know if he paid or not-- he checked in before me.  I guess we will have wait and see if his rating is biased against the course (paid) or biased for the course (freebie.)    That is how it works, isn’t it?

___________________________
 
Tom Huckaby said . . .  
Quote
Shivas - what do you think?
. . .
So still no comments about any bets nor overall impressions or comparisons?  You diplomat....
. . .
Now be a man and evaluate the course.
. . .

It's your turn on the hot seat, my friend.

Tom, you are so excited about this I can hear you panting all the way down here.   Let me ask you, what is it that you are hoping Shivas will say?   That he loved it?  That he hated it?   As I recall you’ve always publicly professed your profound fondness for the course, so I am curious what it is you expect from Shivas . . .  :)

Matt_Sullivan

Re:Shivas' General Theory of Strategy - 100/150 v. 160/210
« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2006, 02:05:05 AM »
I read Tommy Armour's book about 18 months ago and tried to take a similar approach with my wife (a 15 handicap). She did not take kindly to the dictatorial approach and the experiment was initially a failure. But she was interested enough in the approach to read Ray Floyd's book, "The Elements of Scoring". She read a chapter at a time over a couple of weekends on our drives to and from the golf course.

Well, she became a real Ray Floyd disciple and applied a lot of his strategies (which are similar to Armour's), even remarking after certain holes how "Ray would have been happy with how I played that one" and so on. And soon after she shot a career best 79!

As an aside, that was almost a very expensive day for me since my wife and I have a standing bet that I will buy her a rolex if she ever beats me off the stick. Now we are not a rolex family, and neither of us owns a watch that would cost 30% of the cost of a rolex -- so it would be a big deal if she won, and painful for me!. But as a pretty steady 3 hcp I thought I was safe.

Let me tell you, that par I made on 18 that day for a 78 was one of the best (and most important) pars of my life!!! There's nothing like the pressure of playing for a big chunk of your own money!

Anyway, the Ray Floyd book is full of great advice for anyone from a 25 hcp in to scratch. And a good read too

Lloyd_Cole

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Re:Shivas' General Theory of Strategy - 100/150 v. 160/210
« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2006, 07:30:27 AM »
Nobody noted that in his heyday Tom Watson used to lay up to hit 8 iron. He was more confident with it. When Tiger first came on tour he couldn't control his wedges at all and still won at Augusta etc..
Personally I agree with Shivas' original gambit, but hit in the Huckaby range, probably not as straight.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Shivas' General Theory of Strategy - 100/150 v. 160/210
« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2006, 09:58:16 AM »
Tom, you are so excited about this I can hear you panting all the way down here.   Let me ask you, what is it that you are hoping Shivas will say?   That he loved it?  That he hated it?   As I recall you’ve always publicly professed your profound fondness for the course, so I am curious what it is you expect from Shivas . . .  :)

Dave M:

I was just hoping that at long last, after all these years, we could have some good humor about this golf course.  It seems that is happening - at least I am smiling, and no, there's no panting going on.  Laughing yes, panting no.  At least not right now - there sure was panting after I attempted my work-out regimen earlier this morning.

I do love the course, although I like the term "profound fondness".   I expect shivas would as well.  He's just so damn witty, I was trying to draw some fun shit-giving comments out of him.  He's yet to offer such.  But hope does spring eternal.

TH  


Tom Huckaby

Re:Shivas' General Theory of Strategy - 100/150 v. 160/210
« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2006, 10:39:23 AM »
shivas - very nice thoughts - quite similar to what Dave Wigler said about the course, and Matt Ward.

TH


Sean_A

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Re:Shivas' General Theory of Strategy - 100/150 v. 160/210
« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2006, 11:01:51 AM »
Sean, if what you're saying is true Titleist, Maxfli, Precept and everybody else would be out of business in a New York minute because they'd never sell another ball!

This ball argument isn't applicable.  Loads of people line up to buy the latest ball just as they do the latest club or the latest bag.  Consumerism is largely driven by greed not need.  

I think you are using the term "layup" like I use "comfortable".  They largely amount to the same thing.  Hitting shots one is comfortable with.  You are never going to convince me that it is better to be 150 yards away in the fairway rather than 100 yards away in the fairway.  While this may be true for some, I have heard very few say so.  But to each is own.  

I certainly would rather hit wedge than 7 or 8 iron because I will have a better chance of making par.  I would guess that I will hit twice as many greens with wedge compared to 7-8 iron.  On a typically short UK course this could translate into 3 shots saved.  Maybe more or less depending on how I am putting.  I don't factor in birdies as part of my strategy from 100 out-I am happy with par.    

There are times when I think the risk isn't worth the advantage of 50 yards.  There are also times when I feel laying up is such a disadvantage that it isn't worth it.  A lot depends on why I am playing.

On thousands of holes out there the risk is the same with trying to achieve both goals (assuming getting to the 100 yard marker is a reasonable goal and the player is comfortable attempting the shot).  On thousands of other holes the risk difference is minimal.  

Ciao

Sean


New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Pete Lavallee

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Re:Shivas' General Theory of Strategy - 100/150 v. 160/210
« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2006, 11:05:37 AM »
What inquiring minds really want to know is: did you rank it lower due to the lack of interest off the tee?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2006, 11:06:03 AM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

DMoriarty

Re:Shivas' General Theory of Strategy - 100/150 v. 160/210
« Reply #60 on: January 18, 2006, 12:47:30 PM »
shivas - very nice thoughts - quite similar to what Dave Wigler said about the course, and Matt Ward.

TH



Hmmm . . . Is that really what Dave Wigler and Matt Ward said about the course, or are you just trying to cause trouble.  My question remains . . . Why?

Tom Huckaby

Re:Shivas' General Theory of Strategy - 100/150 v. 160/210
« Reply #61 on: January 18, 2006, 01:01:41 PM »
Dave:  I'm not very good at causing trouble.  I was just trying to be polite.  His take did deserve something in reply, as I asked for it.  And that is honestly all I got from it.

TH

Mike Benham

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Re:Shivas' General Theory of Strategy - 100/150 v. 160/210
« Reply #62 on: January 18, 2006, 01:41:11 PM »
shivas - very nice thoughts - quite similar to what Dave Wigler said about the course, and Matt Ward.

TH



Hmmm . . . Is that really what Dave Wigler and Matt Ward said about the course, or are you just trying to cause trouble.  My question remains . . . Why?

Dave -

Why are you asking Why?

Mike
"... and I liked the guy ..."

DMoriarty

Re:Shivas' General Theory of Strategy - 100/150 v. 160/210
« Reply #63 on: January 18, 2006, 06:20:09 PM »
shivas - very nice thoughts - quite similar to what Dave Wigler said about the course, and Matt Ward.

TH



Hmmm . . . Is that really what Dave Wigler and Matt Ward said about the course, or are you just trying to cause trouble.  My question remains . . . Why?

Dave -

Why are you asking Why?

Mike

I am just always fascinated by Tom Huckaby's comments about (or not about, really) RC.  Tom repeatedly rehashes heated RC conversations past (I was reamed . . . now you are on the hotseat . . . sounds like Wigler and Ward . . . etc),  I just wondered why on earth he insists on injecting all the old baggage into the conversation just about every time RC comes up.

It is probably just me, but it seems like we have had some interesting discussion going on.  I just cant see how injecting controversy (past or present) or hoping for shit-giving (or throwing in Ward or Wigler, for that matter) into the discussion is all that positive.   If he really wants to see humor injected into the discussion it just seems like it might be better to let bygones be bygones and start anew.  To see where the current conversation takes us.  

Plus, deep down I have always suspected that Tom has strong feelings about Rustic Canyon that he is not sharing, and that he is hoping someone else will do his dirty work for him.   Ijust wish he would stand up and come clean, or let it go.

Now I am sure this post will probably be considered nasty or negative or bashing or being overly-defensive or whatever, but you asked why I asked so there is your answer . . . .  I dont mean any offense to Tom or anyone as I am sure he is not intentionally causing trouble.  But come on, injecting the Wigler and Ward discussions here is about as loaded as it gets.

Why are you asking why I am asking why?  


Tom Huckaby

Re:A general theory of strategy mentioned elsewhere - 100/150 v. 160/210
« Reply #64 on: January 18, 2006, 06:34:24 PM »
David M:

My feelings about Rustic Canyon are honest and genuine. You've asked me this several times over the years - that is, to come clean - but I am telling you from the bottom of my heart I have said all I need to say about Rustic, and my thoughts are sincere and genuine.  To re-hash:  I do think it's a great golf course, one that deserves all accolades it has received.  I do think there are quite a few others that are better, in different ways and for different reasons, but no matter.  Rustic is a wonderful golf course.  In the past you or others have wanted me to rank it Top 20 or whatever, or to put it better, have demanded reasons why I don't think it rises that high.  My answer remains what I've told you all along:  it's not that high because the other courses are better.  That's it.  At least how I see things, I paid a pretty large price for having these feelings, a price I didn't think was fair then, but which is water under the bridge now.

Also in all honesty, I did perform these re-hashings now for three reasons:

1.  Seriously, I answered shivas because to not do so would be impolite. I asked for his take, he gave it.  It just did come out so close to what Wigler and Ward had said, well... I couldn't resist the dig.  But I really did have nothing else to say - his take was so much the same as so many others about the course.  But mainly I've participated in this at all because....

2. To see if it could be met with levity - because given the very hard feelings that resulted in the past over discussions concerning Rustic - feelings that have caused (among other reasons) a great guy like Dave Wigler to desert this place - well, it was a test to see if water really could be under the bridge.  But I now see it is unwise.  I guess all of that stuff is indeed better left in the past.

3.  To see if you - and Tommy and others who vociferously have defended Rustic in the past against all types of criticism - would give shivas the same treatment you gave the rest of us.  I'm actually kind of glad in one way that you didn't - it always was rather unpleasant - but on the other hand I'm kinda pissed shivas didn't have to suffer through this as we did!

You know what has me bummed most of all?  You're letting shivas make the definitive word on Rustic Canyon.  Heck, I know you find him to be a great foil and do trust his word - as much as you argue with him about many issues - and I know you find me to be not much more than a buffoon - it's OK, I can take it - but do you REALLY want to give him this glory?

 ;D

Oh well Dave, I guess I'll go back to not discussing Rustic.  I just really had hoped we would be past all of this.  But I see we're not.  We'll just bury it again, and maybe in a few more years we'll give it another try.

I'd love to see the course again - don't know when I'll be back in SoCal, but I'm sure I will.  And Rustic will be top priority, as it always is.

TH

[NOTE - late edit added because I stream-of-consiousness wrote this and posted it and then re-reading it, realized I had left out a key part]
« Last Edit: January 18, 2006, 06:40:59 PM by Tom Huckaby »

DMoriarty

Re:A general theory of strategy mentioned elsewhere - 100/150 v. 160/210
« Reply #65 on: January 18, 2006, 09:52:18 PM »
Well there you go again, Tom.  You are the one who pushed and pushed for a conflict, yet now you have the nerve to sulk because you are being picked on again.  

Let's get a few things straight here.  
--It is you who was admittedly and intentionally trying to stir the pot here, not me.
--It is you who couldn't resist the Wigler "dig," as meritless as it may be.    
--It is you who is "pissed" that Shivas' comments havent turned into a big brawl, not me.  

 You are the agressor here Tom, not me.  You may be a passive aggressor, but an aggressor nonetheless.  All I did was try to bring it to the service by asking you why you were trying to create a controversy, and by answering Benham's question about why I asked why.  

I knew it was a mistake to answer Mike's question.  But I prefer to address things directly as opposed to endlessly casting vague aspersions.

But you wanted action, did your best to get action, and now you got it.  Congratulations.

Tom Huckaby

Re:A general theory of strategy mentioned elsewhere - 100/150 v. 160/210
« Reply #66 on: January 18, 2006, 10:41:26 PM »
Hi Dave:

Ok, you got me.  I did want a conflict here.  I wanted you to extract the pound of flesh from shivas that you did from me and several others about this golf course.

But I swear to you I did this because:

a) I thought fair would be fair, and it would be fun to watch you guys battle over this because your battles are always so darn witty and fun; and

b) because I really did think we were all beyond past grudges and it finally, at long last, could be done in good spirit and fun.

I am not sulking, just like I wasn't panting before.  For a guy who's sitting 400 miles away, you make a lot of assumptions.

 ;D

I just assure you I have nothing but decent intentions, and I thought this could be a fun conversation among friends.  I doubt you believe that, but that's ok also.

I remain smiling.  I hope you are as well.  But I do now see that my contributions in this thread were sorely misjudged and misplaced.  My humble apologies.

TH

Brian Noser

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Re:A general theory of strategy mentioned elsewhere - 100/150 v. 160/210
« Reply #67 on: January 18, 2006, 10:45:59 PM »
NO need to worry I am playing there on sunday and I will most likley start the same thread that has just been started about rustic and you all will have a chance to let me have it. I will give you a total recap of the round. it could get ugly, I just hope DM and DK do not take all of my money and make me run back to STL with my tail between my legs.

TEPaul

Re:A general theory of strategy mentioned elsewhere - 100/150 v. 160/210
« Reply #68 on: January 20, 2006, 05:51:36 AM »
Interesting thread.

Obviously Shivas is talking about his own form of course management---eg playing away from his weaknesses---and he basically defined his weaknesses in two areas. His weaknesses aren't everyone's though, and either are his strengths, so it's pretty hard to get too formulaic about offering and applying the title of this thread to everybody's game.

I really like what Doug Siebert and Matt Sullivan said about Armour and Floyd's course management advice. That old saw of Armour's which is pretty similar to Floyd's is basic course management advice that'll never get old or obsolete in golf. It's fundamentally productive advice that'll pay off with almost all handicap golfers, or almost all golfers.

Bascially it's just "risk" management. Most handicap golfers don't understand "risk" management in golf very well and probably half that come to understand it have a hard time applying it properly.

Why? Because basically they feel (at the moment of choice) that it's not sexy, it's not fun, it's, I hesitate to say it---not exciting enough or just boring!

Maybe it is but there's no question at all it does work over the long haul. For most golfers it'll result in smoothing out your highs and lows and it'll result in more consistency of scoring. Smoothing out the lows (potentially low scores), at least theoretically if not actually is what most golfers don't like---they want to see if they can do even better on individual shots and definitely on whole rounds. That part is the everlasting lure.

Ironic that Lynn Shackelford was in that group at Rustic Canyon because the flip side of this entire subject Shivas brought up and Doug Seibert and Matt Sullivan highlighted really well with Armour and Floyd's general "risk" management advice is what Lynn's son Geoff has done one of the best job of modern times explaining in detail in some of his books.

It's the absolute flip-side of comprehensively applied 'risk" management in both a psychological and actual sense and it very much applies to good and interesting golf course architecture.

It's temptation---a course's architectural ability to induce or seduce (tempt) golfers to alter or shed their "risk" management plans at particular points in the round and go for the gusto---(as Oscar Wilde said, "I can resist anything except temptation".).

These two ends of the spectrum, applied "risk" management and temptation are golf's basic dynamic---thank God.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2006, 06:10:52 AM by TEPaul »

BCrosby

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Re:A general theory of strategy mentioned elsewhere - 100/150 v. 160/210
« Reply #69 on: January 20, 2006, 07:55:54 AM »
"It's temptation---a course's architectural ability to induce or seduce (tempt) golfers to alter or shed their "risk" management plans at particular points in the round and go for the gusto."

Well put Tom.

If a course isn't tempting the player to take risks, it isn't working. If a design induces a player to play only to the fat part of the course, the design has failed.

It is in that sense that great architecture is alive; it demands that the player enter into a dialogue with it.  

Bob

Doug Siebert

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Re:A general theory of strategy mentioned elsewhere - 100/150 v. 160/210
« Reply #70 on: January 21, 2006, 12:57:56 AM »
TEPaul,

Its interesting how you refer to Armour's course management style as "risk management" and then contrast it with those who  avoid it because its boring.  I think you only make that black and white distinction because you are assuming that playing for the lowest score is the only possible approach to playing golf (and I'm addressing that just to you, I remember going back and forth with Patrick on this subject a year ago about whether I am really entitled to call the game I play "golf")

The "risk management" I'm balancing in my game isn't about how to achieve the lowest score.  While that's a worthy goal and I applaud those who pursue it, getting the lowest 18 hole score is really secondary to my enjoyment of golf.  So my equation is more like "how cool would it be if I pulled this shot off" versus the odds of my actually doing it.  For it to be worth trying, as the odds of my pulling it off become longer, the coolness factor of achieving the result must increase to match.

That doesn't preclude me from playing what Armour would consider is pretty smart golf most of the time.  After all, the coolness factor of a long drive has really gone down a lot over the years since persimmon drivers went out of style and everyone and their brother is able to make a pretty good pass at it with a driver now.  So I guess my smart shots playing a 1 iron on tight holes to stay in play are actually kind of cool these days because no one carries a 1 iron anymore, though that's not why I play them.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

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