News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Tom Huckaby

Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #50 on: November 22, 2005, 09:56:45 AM »
Again, very cool Ed, and all of this remains very interesting to me - that is, how different people are about all of this.  Me, I like nature too - I've been to damn near every national park in this great country - but if I have a choice, I skip Yellowstone and continue on to Mullen, NE.  But maybe that's because I have seen all of that already... could be.  In any case different strokes for different folks.

It just is very interesting to me how there are some like me and Sean who will play anywhere, anytime, anyhow, and others like you and Tom Doak who have different priorities.

I require nothing of a golf course.  It's PLAYING THE GAME that piques my interest.  But of course, the greater the course, the more potential for really interesting golf.

TH

Tom Huckaby

Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #51 on: November 22, 2005, 10:11:27 AM »
Hendren Scale it is.  Hillbilly implies Barney inclusion.  I sincerely doubt Barney would give up the game for a week for any course.

 ;)

And it is a good measuring stick... even us golf addicts who don't believe in it could say things like "that course was so freakin' great I'd give it a Hendren 12" meaning even we would give up the game for 12 days for it.


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #52 on: November 22, 2005, 10:51:50 AM »
Shivas

Brent slammed a huge asterisk next to my 4 when I wanted to play ONE game with my father.  You are into triple asterisk territory with multiple plays.  In fact, they shouldn't be allowed.  It should be for one game, maybe two if the afternoon game is foursomes.  I think we need Brent to make a ruling.  I must warn you that he is a stern man that doesn't take shiza very lightly.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Tom Huckaby

Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #53 on: November 22, 2005, 10:55:52 AM »
shivas:

Hell I've played all of 3 rounds since Labor Day.  So of course I know how REALITY is for guys like us.  I guess "coaching kids's soccer teams" is a 16 for me.   ;)

I'm just assuming we're talking how much we'd give up IF WE WERE ALLOWED TO PLAY WHENEVER WE WANT.

Isn't that the point of the scale?

If not, then Santa Teresa is a freakin' 8.

Or perhaps guys like us aren't allowed to participate in the scale?

I believe Brent does need to step back in and clarify.  And come to think of it, since he first proposed this, shouldn't it also be renamed the Hendren/Hutto scale?

 ;D
« Last Edit: November 22, 2005, 10:56:30 AM by Tom Huckaby »

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #54 on: November 22, 2005, 11:05:32 AM »
If someone offered me a tee-time at TOC for one full year of my golfing life, I'd decline instantly.  I think I'm definitely a quantity>quality golfer.  However, I'll say this: Usually, when there's a choice of golf courses for me (say a 3 versus a 7; whatever scale you like), I'll always take the higher one.  Perhaps I'm missing out in a way at times, but I can't say for sure.  I love the game too much to take for granted any time I play it.  My mood starts to go downhill if I haven't played in more than 2 weeks or so.  

In winter, it's a real struggle.  Some Sundays (I usually have school on Saturdays), my favorite golf course in the wide world is Shennecossett GC in Groton, CT, because it's just about the only one open year-round in CT (not a lot of snow falls on the shore, typically).  Any of you CT GCA'ers, if you get the itch sometime around mid-January, I highly recommend Shennecossett.  It's actually a Donald Ross design (except for the three holes on the other side of the road, I believe), and it's a lot of fun.  Someday I'll play it when the tee boxes are actually open.

Senior Writer, GolfPass

Brent Hutto

Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #55 on: November 22, 2005, 11:10:14 AM »
It's for "a day", singular. Play twice around if you can manage it but just for the day. And as before, an asterisk if you get all anal about "who with" or such.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #56 on: November 22, 2005, 11:14:40 AM »
Brent - and in terms of what we give up, is it based on our real-world life, or a perfect world in which golf is available all the time?

I ask because damn near every course is at least a 4 based on my real-world life.  That kind of grade inflation is typically limited to SEC schools.

 ;)

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #57 on: November 22, 2005, 11:35:36 AM »

I ask because damn near every course is at least a 4 based on my real-world life.  That kind of grade inflation is typically limited to SEC schools.

 ;)


But not for grade inflation, we might wind up in some golf course architectural chat room hyping the prowess of our women's soccer team.  "What a pity" that would be. ::)

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tom Huckaby

Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #58 on: November 22, 2005, 11:37:54 AM »
TOUCHE and ouch!

 ;D ;D ;D

Keith Williams

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #59 on: November 22, 2005, 02:27:43 PM »
Careful Mike,

We might be approaching Huckaby sports status.

Quick research into our Vols athletic results yields this

http://utladyvols.collegesports.com/sports/w-soccer/recaps/111305aaa.html

Number 11 in the nation and almost their fifth straight sweet sixteen...not quite the lofty results of that powerhouse Santa Clara, but certainly puts Fulmer's guys to shame.  :P Is it shameful when all of your school's women's sports are better than their male counterparts?

BTW,

The mentioning of Dead Horse, Knox muni etc had me reminiscing also, and I started to wonder... is college nearly the great equalizer in GCA snobbery?  Sure, there are those schools that have great facilities, but for most college students it is simply a matter of finding a course that is cheap enough to be played on Saturday with the remainder of drinking money not spent the prior Friday evening.  Of all of my friends I was the snob simply because I got a job as a cart boy out at Cherokee CC for range and play priveleges.

Keith.

john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #60 on: November 22, 2005, 04:06:03 PM »
The Hendren scale for Dead Horse Lake in Knoxville is the time it takes for me to reach Willow Creek !

About 15 minutes.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #61 on: November 22, 2005, 05:07:35 PM »
Haven't read anything on this thread beyond Mike's opening salvo, but to me the more important thing is getting out and playing with some strangers every now and then, preferrably at a muni or inexpensive public golf course. Playing a low budget course kept rock hard during August is probably much more like the roots of golf were, imho.

I don't know if the people on here are snobs, but they/we are probably at least a little spoiled. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Pat_Mucci

Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #62 on: November 22, 2005, 10:28:17 PM »
Mike,

The "challenge" is the inherent heart of the game, not the venue.

Where the "challenge" occurs is a matter of geography.

But, when the "challenge" is made more interesting through creative architecture, it becomes more appealing.

And, don't forget that one of the key, if not the key elements in the challenge is ........ the wind.

Keith Williams

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #63 on: November 23, 2005, 07:26:52 AM »
Shivas,

Sorry, no its Cherokee CC in Knoxville.  1920 Donald Ross with restoration master plan by Ron Prichard.  I don't know how much of the plan has been implemented since I left, though.

Keith

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #64 on: November 23, 2005, 08:00:42 AM »
I think I've gone through a cycle of snobbery.  Now I just about get as much pleasure discovering a Doak "4-5" that's almost unknown as I would paying a great for the first time.  

Very occasionally I'm disappointed by a course because I've researched it and overhyped it in my mind, or it as been spoiled to some degree.  But that ain't often.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Tom Huckaby

Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #65 on: November 23, 2005, 09:41:13 AM »
Paul - understood - but here's the key question, to me and my interest in this anyway - do you ever play courses you KNOW are no great shakes - I'm talking Doak 2-3's - just for the love of playing the game and that's the course available to you, or where friends want to go, or whatever?

That's my golf life much of the time.  It's fascinating to me I seem to be in such a minority here in this respect.

TH

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #66 on: November 23, 2005, 09:47:08 AM »
Jeepers Huckster, you are making me feel a bit desperate.  My home club is no more than a 3 on the Doak Scale.  I had the chance to move to a better club this year, but stayed because Droitwich is where my mates are.  Besides, I get to play plenty of good courses.  Pennard is only 2.5 hours down the road.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Tom Huckaby

Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #67 on: November 23, 2005, 09:54:12 AM »
Sean - sorry man, that was not my intent.  But desparate would describe my local golf situation - man I play when it is available, and the venue is determined far more by logistics than quality.  Sure I too travel to great courses, thankfully.  But when at home, the addiction still needs to be fed.  I still boggles my mind how Ed and others can save their time and efforts for better courses.  But I guess the addicted do have a hard time understanding the non-addicted....

I've always felt playing the game was way more important than the venue.  But why I am surprised it's not the case in this forum?  This is all about venues, after all.

TH

Matt_Ward

Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #68 on: November 23, 2005, 10:12:19 AM »
Huck:

I can understand the golf itch better than most. But after having grown up on courses where turf grew by accident rather than by design -- my time is now spent on the courses of distinction.

That doesn't mean to say it must be only the chosen elites that are often discussed here on GCA.

Generally when I travel I always ask the informed locals what else is good to play in their "neck of the woods." You'd be surprised to know that I have found some interesting places to play because of those insights.

My time is rather limited and I need to get psyched to play. Playing for the sake of playing is frankly boring for me. I need a reason why such and such a course is worthy of a visit. It may only be a few holes or another unique architectural aspect but there's got to be something more than just playing for playings sake. To make do - I'd rather simply head to the range and use my time accordingly there.

P.S. I'm always excited to play a new course by a designer that is not on the "fame" list because clearly there are a number of people with great skills who simply need a bit of promotion with the work they do.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #69 on: November 23, 2005, 10:36:13 AM »
Matt:

That's cool and understood.  We all only have so much time... and so do need to make choices widely.

I just seem to be rather unique here in that often times locally, I just plain don't have many "quality" choices.  Oh such could be done, but either tee-times aren't available, or it's too expensive, or too far away, etc.  So rather than not play at all - if the hall pass has been given, I play.  And it's often on very crappy courses.  But it's golf, and it's always fun.  I do get jazzed to play, NO MATTER WHERE.  I guess that's where I am different from this crowd.

Saving up for better courses... man that is just so foreign to me it might as well be written in Greek.


TH

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #70 on: November 23, 2005, 10:46:55 AM »
Huck, you are simpatico with me, as is often the case. Your point is close to what I was trying to say above on this page, I just didn't say it well.

When I finally make it out west, I'll be tacking on an extra day to see the course where your greatest triumph occurred. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom Huckaby

Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #71 on: November 23, 2005, 10:51:25 AM »
Huck, you are simpatico with me, as is often the case. Your point is close to what I was trying to say above on this page, I just didn't say it well.

When I finally make it out west, I'll be tacking on an extra day to see the course where your greatest triumph occurred. :)

George, that would be very cool.  But why are you going to head down to Palm Desert?

OHHHH... you mean my club championship.... not the course on which I "scored" in the physical sense....

 ;)

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #72 on: November 23, 2005, 10:58:37 AM »
Matt, your post is quite interesting.  I often wonder how you approach playing what seems like many days in a row on your trips to the hinterlands, scoping out new courses to evaluate.  Obviously, you go to the outback (like the western swing you have written about often when you were at Sutton Bay and various others out there) and fill in days by dropping by these other course you get info from locals about.  But, then do you play alone, or try to get paired or placed in a local group?

I ask because I would tend to pass on the obviously mundane and be a bit of a snob if I were purposely on a trip to seek out new venues to evaluate.  I would definitely go to see something the locals are speaking of favorably.  But, since I was out to see good stuff, and went all that way, I wouldn't want to just fill my down time at any old local dog track.  

The thing that would sway me to the mundane, at home or on the road, is if I were with friends and they just wanted to go out and have some fun.  But, I would then seperate my usual attitude of looking for design merit, and just kick back and goof off.

If playing alone, and only having one kick at the cat at a great course, or if it doesn't hold up our group and delay play, I would be hitting some extra shots to test things I see, or redo something I missed but know it should work with the particular design feature I observe.

But, that gets back to the whole rating in one play thing I can't get past. ::)  not that I'm a rater, I just like to write about them.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2005, 10:59:31 AM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #73 on: November 23, 2005, 11:19:27 AM »
"But, that gets back to the whole rating in one play thing I can't get past.   not that I'm a rater, I just like to write about them."

Dick,

You seem to have a lot of company.  Why do you suppose that is?

BTW, when choosing an Italian restaurant, do you seek those that just offer so-so fare, or are you looking for high quality and perhaps value?  My rather undiscerning palate makes me more tolerant of chain stores like the Olive Garden.  Should I consider you to be an Italian food snob and me somehow more virtuous?

Tom Huckaby

Re:Architectural Snobs?
« Reply #74 on: November 23, 2005, 11:34:03 AM »
Huck, as you know, I'm totally with you in the way you look at the game.  I have zero objection to dogtracks.  I often seek them out for fun, just like the way I seek out dive bars with "Packaged Goods Sold Here" signs in the window.  As far as I'm concerned, it ain't a real dive bar unless they sell packaged goods from a visible fridge.

What I hate is mediocre courses that really aren't much better than the dogtracks that have been flowered-up, over manicured and manufactured so as to trick people into thinking they're better than they really are.  I hate lipstick on a pig.  The best women look great in no makeup, jeans and a t-shirt.  All the makeup and fancy clothes in the world don't do a damn thing for them.  Same thing with golf courses.  My 2 cents...
 

You're on a roll, brother.  100% concurrence here.  And I know what you mean... that's why I tend to prefer "honest" munis around here over privately-owned public courses that tend to be the pigs with lipstick.

For us locals, think Spring Valley v. Summitpointe.

TH