The 'Other' side of Fife...

« **Reply #50 on:** November 09, 2005, 02:39:30 PM »

Mickey:

Hmmmm... yes, one can haul straight through to Dornoch and shorten the drive. But it's still going to take a LONG time. I guess this turns on how long you want to stay at Dornoch, and how you want to get there. There certainly is nothing wrong with lingering there. I just find Cruden Bay to be well worth the detour...

Tiger - I guess I ought to appreciate my friends more. I can honestly say that no local there has made me regret spending time with them and wishing for more with the locals, as great as that can be. I guess my buds don't have this stereotypical dockers' attitude! Dammit it's no fun to give them any credit though. Thus I shall never admit this to them.

TH

« **Reply #51 on:** November 09, 2005, 02:44:02 PM »

Quote from: Mickey Boland on November 09, 2005, 12:38:52 PM

Thanks for the good words, Tom. We've got 9 months to go and counting. 4 of us going. We have considered breaking up into twosomes to ballot TOC, but we would sure like to all play together. We don't arrive until Sunday, but our host in St. Andrews will put us on the ballot on Saturday for Monday's play.

We're playing Carnoustie on Sunday, and balloting for TOC on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. Wednesday is actually a scheduled travel day to Dornoch, playing somewhere either on the way, or in the Highlands once we get up there, maybe Boat of Garten. That's assuming we don't get on TOC on that day. We're staying in Dornoch for a few days also.

Mickey

Your itinerary sounds just fine. Don't even think of Cruden Bay. It'll add 2+ hours to your journey and detract from your ability to appreciate St. Andrews and Dornoch. It's worth the trip, but not this time, as you have wisely determined.

Enjoy!

« **Reply #52 on:** November 09, 2005, 02:45:13 PM »

Tom Huckaby writes:
Well Dan, obviously you are the poster-tourist for having unlimited time. Your take is rather clouded by that, don't you think?

Hardly unlimited time or money. I've gone back numerous times since that first trip and I've always tried to recreate the second half of the trip rather than the first half. After all these years there are still a few A courses I've never played, but I still rather look for the local courses.

One more thing: don't look too down on a group of American golfers going from great course to great course. You and others turn up your nose at that often in here. I'm here to say that can be great fun also. Who wouldn't want to play great courses with great friends?

All I was saying is it isn't the optimal way to learn about Scotland. It all depends on your reason for travel. My reason is to learn. I'm going to learn much more about the various Celtic cultures by myself rather than with three buddies, regardless how good of buddies they are.

that also might not be the sole and only goal of a trip.

Like I said, it all depends on your reason to travel. It's a big old goofy world. If your reason for travel is to see sites you haven't seen, courses you've read about and have something to tell the folks when you return, A courses are probably for you. If your reason is to experience what is like in a culture other than your own, then I would think you'd want to stay away from your fellow countrymen and women.

Darren_Kilfara writes:
I've found too often that I've been paired with such a group of people and turned my nose up at the thought, automatically prejudicing myself against the experience I might have and thereby enjoying myself less (while not representing myself well or adding value to the experience for my countrymen as much as I could). Americans are people too, you know, even when they're not already your friends!

You missed my point, despite the fact that I spelled it out. I wasn't looking down at the Americans, just saying they and I have different reasons to travel. When I travel, a big part of the reason is to learn about different cultures. If I'm in Scotland, who will I learn more from more, the guy from Dallas or the guy from Oban? To me it is no-brainer.

I get plenty of chances to meet people from other parts of the U.S.A. In Scotland, given a choice I'd much rather hang out and learn from the Scots. Doesn't mean I totally avoid the big courses, just that they aren't why I go there.

Dan King

Quote

How does it feel
to be without a home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?
--Bob Dylan

« **Reply #53 on:** November 09, 2005, 02:51:47 PM »

Dan:

Good stuff. Just answer this: if you were going again FOR THE FIRST TIME, only had 7-10 days, figured you may never get back, then how do you handle it?

I ask because it's all well and good to say what's best for you, but you've been there a bunch and spent more time there without moving over than anyone I've ever heard of. Thus your take is great for you, but not worth much to many others (and I mean that as no offense).

I also really believe you could give some great wisdom to the average tourist - who has 7-10 days, may never get back.

Care to shed some?

TH

« **Reply #54 on:** November 09, 2005, 03:20:12 PM »

Dan, I think you missed my point, rather than the other way around. What I'm trying to say is that something about this thread is fundamentally selfish - not in a bad way, really, but it's all about "What can I get out of Scotland?", not "What, if anything, can I give back?" Most tourism of any kind is self-centered, to be fair, but it's worth pointing out that the stereotypical American who eats at McDonalds and plays nothing but "trophy" courses and the other golfer who seeks out Scottish company and goes off the beaten path both do so because that's the experience they want, or at least think they want. When you play with the local Scots, do you stop and think about what you might have to offer them in terms of friendship and hospitality, or do you primarily think in terms of e.g. gaining knowledge and experience about another culture, golfing and otherwise? Knowing the sort of person who hangs around this website, a good many of you probably do the former, which is great - the point, though, is that until you take that step and think about the other guy, whoever he is, you're not a better person (or golfer) for wanting to see "the real Scotland" than you would be if you were staying at Greywalls and playing with your millionaire buddies at Muirfield.

Cheers,
Darren

« **Reply #55 on:** November 09, 2005, 03:25:16 PM »

Tom, My friends do not act like that at home either. Actually not all of them do in the UK either. My point should have been how much I have enjoyed playing with the locals over there and how out of place groups of 8 or more Americans often look ie the Dockers commercial look. Either way I am glad to be playing golf in the UK anytime.

« **Reply #56 on:** November 09, 2005, 03:29:25 PM »

Tiger - understood. I guess I was just looking at this inwardly - I had so much fun with my group of 12 there, I can't possibly imagine time spent with the locals being better - and I have done that as well and absolutely enjoyed that. I also could give a rat's ass if we looked like a Docker's commercial to them. Perhaps I should have, or really did without thinking about it... I feel confident we had little in common with the Dockers guys.

Our bottom line is the same in any case - any golf in the UK is time well spent, however it is done.

TH

« **Reply #57 on:** November 09, 2005, 03:29:46 PM »

Tiger
Its the wearing of golf shoes everywhere that puzzles us Scots .

Brian

« **Reply #58 on:** November 09, 2005, 03:31:59 PM »

Quote from: Brian_Ewen on November 09, 2005, 03:29:46 PM

Tiger
Its the wearing of golf shoes everywhere that puzzles us Scots .

Brian

YAHOOO!
Brian - I clued my group about that before we went over, as I had heard about it before. Thus we ditched the golf shoes immediately after playing, every round. We also banned all denim. Perhaps that's why we fit in better and weren't a dockers commercial? We did make a LOT of local friends...

Oh one more thing - we took every chance to explain to any local that we had absolutely no desire to go to England. That also had to help on the acceptance end, no?

TH

« **Reply #59 on:** November 09, 2005, 04:29:27 PM »

Three of us in my group are from Texas, and we are debating whether or not the boots should go. Is that giving something back to the locals?

Upside: conversation starter at the local pub
Downside: Uh, no, we're not from Dallas and we can't get you a date with Lucy, Pam or Sue Ellen.

My group, too, has banned denim and are practicing removing our caps when we enter the clubhouse.

« **Reply #60 on:** November 09, 2005, 04:31:04 PM »

Ha! Love it, Mickey. The boots are a tough call. Many plusses and minuses, as you list.

« **Reply #61 on:** November 09, 2005, 04:40:20 PM »

Quote from: Mickey Boland on November 09, 2005, 04:29:27 PM

Three of us in my group are from Texas, and we are debating whether or not the boots should go. Is that giving something back to the locals?

Upside: conversation starter at the local pub
Downside: Uh, no, we're not from Dallas and we can't get you a date with Lucy, Pam or Sue Ellen.

My group, too, has banned denim and are practicing removing our caps when we enter the clubhouse.

Mickey

Go for the gusto. Bring the boots and rent some kilts. My brother dressed like that at my wedding in Dornoch, and 15 years later people are still talking about it.

« **Reply #62 on:** November 09, 2005, 04:53:59 PM »

;DThat's great! We have not thought about the boots/kilts combo. Can one rent a kilt? The pictures alone would be worth it. Ah, I can see us now: cigars and single-malts in hand, boots propped up on the table, kilts a-flying. The very picture of American ugliness!

« **Reply #63 on:** November 09, 2005, 04:54:54 PM »

Tom Huckaby writes:
Good stuff. Just answer this: if you were going again FOR THE FIRST TIME, only had 7-10 days, figured you may never get back, then how do you handle it?

If I go back in a vacuum then I probably visit Open courses. If there were a Dan King out there to advise me before I go then I'd listen to him because even if I was only going for 7-10 days for the only time in my life, my reason for going would be to learn about Scotland, not collect bag tags.

Like I said, it all depends on your reason for going. Before you head over the pond think about what you want to get out of this trip. Do you want to learn more about the various cultures and people of Scotland or do you want a cool slide show when you return?

My advise for a 7-10 day trip is to pick a region. Play both the A courses in the area and some of the other courses. Get to know the people and the area. Is is something you can't do if you are in East Lothian for a few days, Fife for two days, Angus another, Aberdeen for a day and the Highlands for a day or two. You do the single region, chances are you'll be back to discover another area in the future. I'd even advice for a first time visitor East Lothian would be a great place to start. Check out Gullane No. 1 but also be sure to play No. 2 and No. 3. Don't just play North Berwick, but also explore the town, play on the putting greens and visit the pubs. Get out to Dunbar not just for the golf but also for the home of Belhaven.

My next trip is to rent a motorcycle and really explore the western islands.

Darren_Kilfara writes:
What I'm trying to say is that something about this thread is fundamentally selfish - not in a bad way, really, but it's all about "What can I get out of Scotland?", not "What, if anything, can I give back?"

I've given this some thought, and just can't get around what a bizarre concept I see it as. I host many people at my homes in California, both in Los Gatos and in Cayucos. I've never once considered what are they giving me. I like if they enjoy their California experience, it gives me pride if they enjoy themselves in my state, but that is a bi-product, not why I am hosting them. I do it not looking for something in return, but as a friend.

That being said, if my friendship has any value, I think I do give them something. I've made numerous friends in Scotland, and they all know should they come to California that I'd be thrilled to act as their host. I guess sometimes I bring many extra golf balls because they cost much more in Scotland and I end up giving those away.

Tom Huckaby writes:
YAHOOO!

Let's try to avoid product placements here, okay?

Dan King

Quote

I knew it was the end. I looked down, I said "Wow! Some trip". I thought it...well I knew it was...I knew it was my last trip, and in my last remaining seconds in world,I decided to write one last farewell song to the world.

Put a new ink cartridge in my pen. Took out a piece of paper.
I sat back and I thought awhile. Then I started writin':
I don't want a pickle
Just want to ride on my motorsickle
And I don't want a tickle
'Cause I'd rather ride on my motorsickle
And I don't want to die
Just want to ride on my motorcy ...cle."
--Arlo Guthrie

« **Reply #64 on:** November 09, 2005, 05:00:21 PM »

Dan:

Fantastic and dammit, you caught me. It's just become normal everyday exclamation, you know?

And your Scotland advice remains rock-solid. Any and all visitors, read what Dan just wrote in that last post and take it as gospel. That truly is perfect advice.

Thanks again, Dan. The education continues.

TH

« **Reply #65 on:** November 09, 2005, 05:20:40 PM »

Crikey,
this thread has grown arms and legs hasn't it!
I love how threads get all organic and actually achieve little lives of their own. Kind of like having kids and sending them out into the wide world and seeing how they come back!

One thing, Mickey: Cowboy Boots and Kilts. Hmmm, let me see. Maybe a bit too outrageous? Yes, DEFINITELY go for it. You might get a few invites to Line-Dancing classes though! (actually, if any of you has 'Cat'erpillar Boots, bring them. That is standard 'casual' version of kilt-besporting footwear for young Scottish males) .I prefer manly 'Ghillie Brogues' myself. Well, when one reaches a certain age...
Oh, and Kilt Hire is indeed possible. Every Scottish town has a hire Shop. About £25 a day usually.

Now, should I bring the Kilt to California. Hmm, let me see...

FBD.

« **Reply #66 on:** November 09, 2005, 05:22:50 PM »

Mickey
Boots are well accepted in Scotland nowadays , in fact you see many on the "Plastic Yanks" in Aberdeen

And yes you will be able to hire kilts . My local one is http://www.mccallsltd.com/

Regards.
Brian

« **Reply #67 on:** November 09, 2005, 05:32:15 PM »

Why would I have ever questioned whether one could rent a kilt and get all of the details about it on the Internet?

This lends a new dimension to the trip. Thanks for the info!

« **Reply #68 on:** November 09, 2005, 05:33:11 PM »

Oh, and did I mention that the Chicks REALLY dig them...?

FBD.

« **Reply #69 on:** November 09, 2005, 06:26:05 PM »

Come on! Just ask FBD and Rihc for down to earth advice. They know all there is to know between them. I've seen Rihc and Darren play - I'd settle for their advice any time. Grab it while it's free!

« **Reply #70 on:** November 09, 2005, 06:34:08 PM »

Mark - those two are giants among men and their advice is golden. But the advice of frequent visitors is very worthwhile also. It is difficult to think like a visitor when one is a resident.

TH

« **Reply #71 on:** November 09, 2005, 07:04:17 PM »

Tom,

I appreciate your cautions about residents, but we only have a few participants from the UK on this site. I have to say that they may be few in number, but there is a lot of quality information available from the few UK contributors, few of whom are native.

There may be problems with immigrants magnified by the current problems in France, but we are more than delighted with our American golfing residents, who appreciate our native resources in depth. They may have despised us and rejected us once [a few centuries ago], but one of them is known to have taken up cricket. I remember his drive on the 17th at Painswick. I was humiliated to try to follow him in the match following.

Come on, let's also try to forget the humiliation of my topping a 5-wood off the 1st tee at Painswick in the match following Rihc with TV cameras still rolling while all in his match either drove the green or left themselves a simple pitch in. He (Rihc) went on to some ridiculous score in the low 60s.

« **Reply #72 on:** November 09, 2005, 07:54:32 PM »

Sean Arble writes:
On the bike note, I did meet a guy at Pennard who had been traveling from Germany through to the far end of Ireland (he wasn't quite sure which far end he would end up at).

That's my dream, man. This is probably why my favorite way to travel is without planning, because I'm not a planning kind of guy. Years ago I read a book called Hell's Golfer: A Good Walk Spoiled by Tom Morton, which was a fictional story of Arnold Evelyn MacLachlan Palmer traveling the islands on a Kawasaki. Since then I've had the dream, but just waiting to have a nice chunk of time to go and a bit of loose coin in my pocket.

It would be way cool if I could find a Vincent Black Lightning to do the trip, and even cooler if I could find my own Red Molly to be my travelling companion/caddie/bed warmer.

Given a choice of playing Turnberry, Troon, Prestwick, St. Andrews Old Course, Muirfield, Carnoustie all on the same trip, or tooling around the islands on a Vincent Black Lightning with Red Molly, I'd have no trouble picking "Red hair and black leather, my favourite colour scheme."

Maybe I should pitch the idea to a publisher or Hollywood film producer.

Dan King

Quote

Says James "In my opinion, there's nothing in this world
Beats a 52 Vincent and a red headed girl.
Now Nortons and Indians and Greeves won't do,
Ah, they don't have a soul like a Vincent 52
Oh he reached for her hand and he slipped her the keys
Said "I've got no further use for these.
I see angels on Ariels in leather and chrome,
Swooping down from heaven to carry me home"
And he gave her one last kiss and died
And he gave her his Vincent to ride.
--Richard Thompson

« **Reply #73 on:** November 10, 2005, 09:22:54 AM »

Quote from: Martin Bonnar on November 09, 2005, 05:20:40 PM

Now, should I bring the Kilt to California. Hmm, let me see...

FBD.

Martin,

You should play Cypress in your kilt...

Brian

« **Reply #74 on:** November 10, 2005, 09:28:13 AM »

A wise man recently gave me the following advice on this subject and I'm sure he wouldn't mind my sharing it in this thread.

Quote

Set your priorities! What do you really want to achieve? Don't settle for less.

News:

THuckaby2

ForkaB

Dan King

THuckaby2

Darren_Kilfara

Tiger_Bernhardt

THuckaby2

Brian_Ewen

THuckaby2

Mickey Boland

THuckaby2

ForkaB

Mickey Boland

Dan King

THuckaby2

Marty Bonnar

Brian_Ewen

Mickey Boland

Marty Bonnar

Mark_Rowlinson

THuckaby2

Mark_Rowlinson

Dan King

Brian Phillips

Brent Hutto