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Patrick_Mucci

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #50 on: October 10, 2005, 02:32:07 PM »
TEPaul,

Perhaps you can recall the police officer's testiimony when cross examined by the defense attorney.

I'm leading up to something  ;D

TEPaul

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #51 on: October 10, 2005, 02:40:11 PM »
Patrick:

I don't care what you're leading up to. Do you know when the "One Ball" rule was adopted or don't you? A simple answer of no would be appreciated if you don't know and a simple answer of yes followed by the date would also be appreciated. Any beating around the bush, hedging, trimming, weeding, fertilizing or any other manner of cheap evasion would not be appreciated and would only be more evidence of what a slippery air-head you really are. Now just answer me!
 
« Last Edit: October 10, 2005, 03:04:35 PM by TEPaul »

ForkaB

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #52 on: October 10, 2005, 02:49:29 PM »
"Now just answer me;"

Thomas

It is ineffective to punctuate a demand with a semicolon....... :(

A_Clay_Man

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #53 on: October 10, 2005, 03:54:02 PM »
Pat, I suppose I should answer, since it was my specualtion of the possibility of turning away a certain segment of the golfing populous, throug a rollback. Personally my moral relativeism feels "good riddence" if thats what keeps them coming back, who needs'em? But,the larger point I was trying to make is that it was speculation. Admittedly. But what gets me is the arrogance that YOU know it won't drive people away. Admit that it's a possibility, even a temporary possibilty and you are much more credible. Emphatically stating it won't, sounds like fanaticism.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2005, 09:53:26 PM by Adam Clayman »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #54 on: October 10, 2005, 04:51:32 PM »
Adam,

Were golfers in the UK driven away from golf in 1990 when the R&A mandated use of the 1.68 rather than the 1.62 ball ?

Were golfers in the U.S. driven away whe the USGA adopted the one ball rule ?

Distance is at an all time high, yet the number or rounds are down and clubs are hurting for members.

It's not the pursuit of distance that attracts players to the game, it's the inherent challenge, in the air, on the ground, and between the ears.

A_Clay_Man

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #55 on: October 10, 2005, 06:09:51 PM »
It's not the pursuit of distance that attracts players to the game, it's the inherent challenge, in the air, on the ground, and between the ears.

Patrick, First off, It has to be acknowledged that we come from different universes. Mine is Public, yours is Private. We are in complete agreement on the above quoted statement. It was my contention that designs that lack a respect for core principles, has led to the decrease in "The numbers". However, the reality is that soemwhere around 1985, the game ceased to be just a game, and has evolved into an industry. Perhaps thats why I keep using "the money" as the root cause for why I feel this rollback campaign will fail. Not that it should.

p.s Patrick, Would you agree that the pursuit of added distance has been around as long as the game?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2005, 06:13:52 PM by Adam Clayman »

wsmorrison

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #56 on: October 10, 2005, 06:23:09 PM »
"Were golfers in the UK driven away from golf in 1990 when the R&A mandated use of the 1.68 rather than the 1.62 ball ?"

According to the information supplied to me by Tom Paul, you have the date wrong, Pat.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #57 on: October 10, 2005, 06:38:41 PM »
Patrick,
You say that rounds are down.  From when?  The number of rounds is down from its recent peak, but far higher than in the 60's, 70's, and 80's, no?  I would suspect that the highest number of rounds played as a % of the total population here in the U.S. was in the 90's, during a booming economy and at the maximum participation of baby boomers in the game.  The money that came to the game at that time fueled unprecedented course construction and equipment development, but that cycle could hardly be expected to last forever.  I SUSPECT these things, but am willing to be proved wrong.

I have no idea if the changeover in Britain hurt rounds played there or not.  If you have that data (NOT a subjective impression) I'd love to see it, and will happily concur with you that it didn't hurt if that is what hard data shows.

BTW, I've never alleged that distance off the tee is the main lure of the game.  I do think that making the game harder is an interesting strategy to make the game grow!
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

TEPaul

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #58 on: October 10, 2005, 07:37:21 PM »
Patrick:

First of all, what are you referring to as the "One Ball" rule? Do you mean when the R&A finally adopted the 1.68 ball and the 1.62 was no longer made and used in their competitions or do you mean the adoption of the local "One Ball" rule that can be adopted under the "Conditions of Competition"?

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #59 on: October 10, 2005, 07:46:46 PM »
"Were golfers in the UK driven away from golf in 1990 when the R&A mandated use of the 1.68 rather than the 1.62 ball ?"

According to the information supplied to me by Tom Paul, you have the date wrong, Pat.


Wayne,

I emailed you the source of the information with respect to the effective date, worldwide, of the adoption of the 1.68 ball.

The date is irrelevant, it's the impact on golf, the result of the mandate that's the important issue.

Adam Clayman,

I'm fairly familiar with public golf, and many course are having trouble, that's one of the reasons why the green fees are being reduced and why some are being sold for development.

Golfers have always longed to hit it longer and straighter, just like they've longed to be better putters, bunker players, fairway wood players, iron players, chippers and pitchers.

It's the only component of the game where the player gets perfect lies and it's not as target oriented as other aspects of the game, so blasting away doesn't harm most shots if they're hit on line.  But, driving distance isn't the lure of the game.

AGCrockett,

Look at the current trends.

We're not talking about 1920 to 1935 or 1935 to 1950.
Look at rounds played in the last five years, when distances continued to reach all time highs.  Adam Claimed that distance was the lure, and if it was reduced golf would lose its appeal and the number of its participants, but, golf has been losing participants despite improving distances every year for the last 13 years.  So, his theory is flawed.

When the USGA went to the one ball rule, did golf suffer ?
Did golfers abandon the game because of that change ?

You know the answers, you just don't want to agree with me. ;D

« Last Edit: October 10, 2005, 07:47:11 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #60 on: October 10, 2005, 07:49:32 PM »
Patrick:

First of all, what are you referring to as the "One Ball" rule? Do you mean when the R&A finally adopted the 1.68 ball and the 1.62 was no longer made and used in their competitions or do you mean the adoption of the local "One Ball" rule that can be adopted under the "Conditions of Competition"?


As usual, you're confused.

I referenced two seperate issues.

1.  The adoption of the 1.68 ball by the R&A.
2   The adoption of the "one ball" rule.
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TEPaul

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #61 on: October 10, 2005, 08:06:00 PM »
"I referenced two seperate issues.
1.  The adoption of the 1.68 ball by the R&A.
2  The adoption of the "one ball" rule."

So, then when was the "one ball" rule adopted? I've asked you about three times. Can't you read or are you just in the dark, as usual?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2005, 08:07:39 PM by TEPaul »

A_Clay_Man

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #62 on: October 10, 2005, 08:09:08 PM »
Patrick, I said it was the savvy advertisers who use added distance as a lure. Now, Are you saying Madison avenue is targeting the wrong lure?

If the "Industry" exudes anything, it exudes a complete reliance on marketing to the majority of golfers. It just so happens the majority, only golfs, 5-7 times a year.

Now, if this fickle fringe, is so important to the profit numbers for the industry, how the hell are you ever going to convince anyone, in the current corporate enviornment, to put the genie back in the bottle?

As per your expirence to public golf, I only made that statement because you are constantly citing club members, when my mind is thinking more about the "retail golfer".


Are there more public or private courses in the U.S.? the world?

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #63 on: October 10, 2005, 08:47:56 PM »
"Were golfers in the UK driven away from golf in 1990 when the R&A mandated use of the 1.68 rather than the 1.62 ball ?"

According to the information supplied to me by Tom Paul, you have the date wrong, Pat.


Wayne,

Then TEPaul doesn't know what he's talking about.

But, you already knew that, didn't you.
[/color]

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #64 on: October 10, 2005, 08:48:44 PM »

Now, if this fickle fringe, is so important to the profit numbers for the industry, how the hell are you ever going to convince anyone, in the current corporate enviornment, to put the genie back in the bottle?

We don't have to convince anyone in the corporate environment.

We only have to convince the USGA.
[/color]



« Last Edit: October 10, 2005, 08:49:06 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #65 on: October 10, 2005, 09:00:40 PM »
Perhaps you can recall the police officer's testiimony when cross examined by the defense attorney.

Is that the parable where the guy who answers the questions directly and clearly gets the better of the guy who is pestering him with questions that they both know the answer to?
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

David Lott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #66 on: October 10, 2005, 09:12:01 PM »
Mr. Mucci, as often the case, you post an interesting topic.

But while the USGA asked a fair question, the rest of their current magazine is a muddle. Most issues, no matter how complicated, can be summarized in a sentence or two. When I asked myself how I would summarize what USGA was communicating, I came up with this:

"There's no problem, and we're working hard to find a solution."

USGA and R&A are supposed to lead, not pose interesting questions. I haven't seen a lot of leadership on the question of equipment, particularly the golf ball.



David Lott

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #67 on: October 10, 2005, 09:35:56 PM »
To those so adamantly defending the USGA, a noted golf course architect recently sent me this:


"I have been reading some wonderful and appropriate responses to your decision to refuse continued membership in the USGA .  (However) ...there are those  ...  who choose to bury their heads in the sand.  The point you make is so clear and it reflects the very essence of Golf Club Atlas ..."




"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

A_Clay_Man

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #68 on: October 10, 2005, 10:07:14 PM »
Well shoot, a noted architect is encouraging withholding usga fees. It must be a serious issue. I'm flip floppin


Patrick,
Quote
We don't have to convince anyone in the corporate environment.

To not call the USGA a corporate enviornment, is contrary to how, at least, I perceive them..

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #69 on: October 10, 2005, 10:24:19 PM »
"Were golfers in the UK driven away from golf in 1990 when the R&A mandated use of the 1.68 rather than the 1.62 ball ?"

According to the information supplied to me by Tom Paul, you have the date wrong, Pat.


AGCrockett,

Look at the current trends.

We're not talking about 1920 to 1935 or 1935 to 1950.
Look at rounds played in the last five years, when distances continued to reach all time highs.  Adam Claimed that distance was the lure, and if it was reduced golf would lose its appeal and the number of its participants, but, golf has been losing participants despite improving distances every year for the last 13 years.  So, his theory is flawed.

When the USGA went to the one ball rule, did golf suffer ?
Did golfers abandon the game because of that change ?

You know the answers, you just don't want to agree with me. ;D



Patrick,
I'd love to agree with you!  I'm just not sure what you are talking about. :)

You are doing some apples to oranges here with the distance/participation stuff.  The distance stats are from the PGA Tour,  but the participation numbers are from the real world.  MY distance certainly hasn't gone up for the last 13 years!

In my estimation, the popularity of golf has been helped since the development of 2-piece Surlyn balls that are cheaper, more durable, and fly longer and straighter.  They are typically sold in 15-18 ball packs at discount stores, and they are used by the great mass of the golf world.  

You can blame anything that you want, but I'll lay whatever participation drop there has been for the last 5 yrs. directly at the feet of the economy.  Why would you look any farther?  Best economy in the country's history through the 90's, recession starts in March of '01, intensifies after 9/11, and ends with a "jobless recovery".  What is so complicated about that?

I'll accept your premise that distance doesn't bring people to the game, but surely you aren't contending that reducing distance will bring more participation!

As to the decades, you asserted that golf was very popular in a number of decades when the ball was shorter.  All I asked was that you show some data as to the rounds played, if such data is available.  Ditto for what happened in Britain; I'd honestly like to see the data.  It might be instructive.

By the one-ball rule, I assume you mean the local rule that is sometimes used in tournament play, since you could never change balls during the normal play of a hole.  I've never talked about that here, so I'm not sure why that question is directed at me, but I'll stipulate that whatever you are talking about apparently didn't hurt the popularity of the game.  That rule impacts probably .000001% of the rounds of golf played on the planet anyway!
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #70 on: October 10, 2005, 10:39:29 PM »
AG

Pat is using the term "one-ball rule", but referring to the standardization of golf ball size to 1.68 inches. I think he means one size ball in his posts, not one brand.

I was following the conversation and I think this is all I can add to it. :)

TEPaul

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #71 on: October 10, 2005, 11:00:48 PM »
"Does anyone on this board think the world of golf and architecture would be better off without them (the USGA/R&A) now or in the future? And if they do think that what does that someone think the alternative would be to them (the USGA/R&A) and what they do either now or in the future?

To go back to Pat's initial post question on this thread the USGA in their October 2005 Newletter really is asking some fair questions. If any of you haven't even read that USGA October 2005 newsletter then frankly I don't think you even have a right, or at least you don't have the proper opportunity, to intelligently post an opinion on this thread!

« Last Edit: October 10, 2005, 11:11:22 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #72 on: October 11, 2005, 02:18:44 AM »
Michael Moore,

No, that must be another parable.

David Lott,

I agree with you.
I alluded to their unique presentation in the October edition of
"Inside the USGA"

AGCrockett,

The fact that your distance and almost everyone elses hasn't gone down in 13 years, as you've aged, become less athletic and more sedintary is the telling story.

When I was younger I saw my dad and his contemporaries distance plummet as they aged.  Today, guys at 65 are longer than they were when they were 25.

I see 15 handicap players age 70 hitting it longer than good players did in their 20's forty years ago.

And you don't think a broad spectrum of golfers has benefited dramatically from technology ?

I'm contending that reduced distance won't alter the game, participation and its enjoyment.

Rounds per year as recorded by individual clubs are a good barometer for play and popularity, understanding that certain clubs control that number through their admissions policy.

Adam Clayman,

What you and the others lose sight of is the damage that high tech and distance have done to wonderful classic golf courses.  

You cannot continue to allow technology and distance to reduce the inherent values of the playing grounds

It's not just about the ball and the equipment, as if they exist in a vacuum.  It's the related damage they've done to classic golf courses, the cost to create new ones and renovate existing ones.

Everyone screams at how ANGC is being ruined, how the architectural values as intended by AM are being squeezed out of the golf course.  Why is ANGC making these changes ?  Because they're responding to the distance problem,  the one that you and others don't see.

Merion, Pine Valley and many other courses are being lengthened to combat and offset the distance brought about by hi-tech, and, it's not for the PGA Tour Pros that all courses are being lengthened.  Even my dinky, little, 6,500 yard, wonderful golf course in New Jersey is being lengthened to offset the distance brought about by hi-tech.

And, courses that can't add length due to land restrictions are moving bunkers, narrowing their rough, growing it deeper and more lush, speeding up their greens to a comical degree and losing them due to the adverse results, as are courses that can add length at the tee end.  Some courses are moving greens to add length.

And, you're worried about some marginal golfers who MAY turn tail and abandon the game because they don't hit it as far or as straight.  Are you kidding me.

My position is, let them go and good riddance.
They're not the core of the game and they're not golfers at heart.

I recently lost 50+ yards on my drives and comparable distance on my irons and my love and enjoyment of the game didn't diminish one iota.   I just had to alter my plan of attack and navigation of the golf course.

What's all this whining and worrying about the manufacturers and marginal golfers, focus instead on the destruction and disfiguration of classic golf courses, the cost to build and maintain new golf courses and how expensive distance has made the game.

TEPaul,

While I take issue with the USGA on certain topics, I think they've done a superior job on guiding the game since they were formed.

I am disturbed about the distace issue, amateurism and a few other issues, but, on balance, they've been outstanding for a volunteer organization.  

However, like all of us, they're not always correct.  Hence,
without constructive criticism, progress is impossible,
and my comments are in a constructive vein.

For those who don't wish to support the USGA, ask yourself, what would happen to golf if the USGA no longer existed ?

Who would take their place ?
Who would guide golf ?  
The manufacturers ?  150 self interested Tour Pros ?
Each golf club ?

Chaos would reign.
We need the USGA, but, we need them to listen, to listen to letters such as Ron Prichard's letter of 13 years ago and to be more attentive and responsive to the issues.

Eternal vigilance is the price of greatness.

I still want to know WHY my paddle grip on my putter was banned.  I never putted the same after I had to replace it.
Yet, these long things they use to churn butter with, with two grips are routinely permited.

And, BRING BACK THE STYMIE for match play.

Even Bobby Jones, a distinquished gentleman and an accomplished player wrote passioned pleas to the USGA to retain it.  

Back to the topic.

Creating a "competition ball" with certain performance standards, and spec'ing equipment with the same goal in mind won't hurt golf, it'll preserve classic courses and provide the same level of fun that golf has enjoyed for centuries.

P.S.

Someone told me that he heard that a Tour Player, other than Woods or Daly, at the Amex had four drives at 400+.  
Is that true ?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2005, 03:20:23 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #73 on: October 11, 2005, 05:57:38 AM »
AG

Pat is using the term "one-ball rule", but referring to the standardization of golf ball size to 1.68 inches. I think he means one size ball in his posts, not one brand.

I was following the conversation and I think this is all I can add to it. :)

JES,
I think he means two different things here.  Go back and look at post #65; I don't know what the one-ball rule has to do with this, but I think he has that separated from the standardization of size.
I just don't know what for... :)
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

TEPaul

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #74 on: October 11, 2005, 07:49:35 AM »
"Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on Yesterday at 02:32:07pm
Perhaps you can recall the police officer's testiimony when cross examined by the defense attorney.

Michael Moore asked Pat;
 
"Is that the parable where the guy who answers the questions directly and clearly gets the better of the guy who is pestering him with questions that they both know the answer to?"

Michael:

No it is not. Matter of fact, it's precisely the opposite and it's not a parable, it's a true story (actually told to a number of us by Pat).

Pat gets arrested for speeding in New Jersey by your everyday cop doing his duty of monitoring speeders. Pat goes in front of the judge and the arresting officer with his citation. Pat has gone back out to the scene of the crime with a measuring tape and a calculator and dreamt up an entire litany of incorrect facts and circumstances and proceeds to throw all this goobledygook and disinformation on the Judge's bench. Pat then fires about 100 questions and statements at the Judge and the arresting officer even ending up claiming that there's no way he could have been speeding because the "One Ball" rule was adopted by the USGA and R&A in 1990 and golf did not lose popularity and that proves there is no conceivable way he could've been going 123mph in a 35 mph zone.

The Judge is listening to all this crap in total amazement---he looks around behind Pat and the arresting officer (who has his head buried in his hands) and sees he has about 20 of the cases on his docket backed up behind them---the Judge then says to Pat: "Anybody who has the balls to come up with a load of crap like that has got my vote for creativity. NOT GUILTY and get the Hell out or my Courtroom in the next ten seconds or I'll find you in contempt of court and you'll be spending the next six months in jail!"

Things like that are parables in most of the rest of the world but horseshit like that actually happens in the State of New Jersey because New Jersey is where Pat lives and New Jersey has far more than their share of Pat Muccis than any other locality on earth.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2005, 08:23:23 AM by TEPaul »

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