[THuckaby2]

Apparently them stones at Olde Stonewall sure are purty.

It's not even my favorite local daily fee - I'd take Quicksilver over it.

Re: Black Mesa -

The only negative I said is that it isn't ideal for high handicappers. Most top courses probably aren't, and I wouldn't let my own shortcomings affect a ranking, were I a rater (which I am thankfully not). I would place it well above Paa Ko, for instance.

 

Ok George, that's cool.  I guess I was dreaming in those lengthy topics with Matt Ward and I defending the course and you taking it to task.

 

Kinda hard for you to give the GD list too much crap, huh?  I mean they got it so RIGHT in numbers 5 and 6....  

TH

[Evan_Green]

I am amazed how far both Sawgrass and Harbour Town have fallen

[George Pazin]

If nothing else on the list is correct, at least no one can argue the relative placement of #s 5 & 6!

Further perusing the public 100, I'd place Black Mesa well above Wolf Creek and Olde Stonewall, two other ones I've played. Several in our outing expressed a preference for Twin Warriors to BM, but I think most would at least put them in the same general vicinity.

Of course, I'd put The Rawls Course well ahead of any of the other publics I've mentioned.

 

[Evan_Green]

Where is Yeamans Hall?

[Jim Franklin]

#9 in South Carolina.

[THuckaby2]

If nothing else on the list is correct, at least no one can argue the relative placement of #s 5 & 6!

Further perusing the public 100, I'd place Black Mesa well above Wolf Creek and Olde Stonewall, two other ones I've played. Several in our outing expressed a preference for Twin Warriors to BM, but I think most would at least put them in the same general vicinity.

Of course, I'd put The Rawls Course well ahead of any of the other publics I've mentioned.

 

But that's one BIG thing to get "correct."  The rest is all just nitpicking and subjectivity.

Say it, George:  you love Golf Digest.  

[Brian_Gracely]

It's not hard to believe that places like Friar's Head, Sutton Bay, Kingsley, etc.. are not highly rated.  Joel Stewart (GD rater) summed it up nicely a few weeks ago..."it's not a pretty place".  Shaggy bunkers and remote destinations just doesn't cut it with the GD crowd  

[THuckaby2]

BG:

If that's true, then why oh why is Sand Hills so beloved?  #12 overall is pretty high praise.  

Methinks generalizations are never gonna work completely.

 

However, if one is to generalize, I'd say this might work better:  courses in remote places, especially private ones who actively discourage raters from seeing them, are always going to be seen by a very small number of raters, such that it only takes a tiny few with "bad" numbers to skew the overall rating.

I'd have to guess that's what's going on at Friar's Head, Kingsley, Sutton Bay far more than any particular preferred look.

TH

[Mike Hendren]

Tom,

As a friend, I beg of you:  Please select the fourth towell from the bottom of the stack and wave it vigorously over your head for all to see.



 I can no longer bear to look.

Mike

[Tony_Chapman]

Good god almighty!! If Wild Horse isn't one of the Top 100 public courses in the nation, then I am quitting the game. The Nebraska rankings are a joke. An absolute joke.

[Matt_Ward]

A few more comments from the cheap seats ...

I looked at the New Jersey listing and once again the laugh is obvious ...

*Plainfield "drops" to #5 in the state even AFTER the considerable work of Gil Hanse to restore the qualities of the layout there. Frankly, Plainfield is the #2 course in NJ and should remain in the top 50 overall in the USA -- Digest showed great "wisdom" in dropping the layout to #95.

*Then you have the elevation of The Ridge at Back Brook. Although I am not as negative on the course as others who have weighed in here on GCA -- I can't see how the course is even remotely considered for a top ten position. I concede it might crack the top 20 but more towards the rear than the front of the line. Among the 55+ TF courses I have personally played The Ridge at Back Brook would not be among the top 50%.

*Neither Essex County CC or Forsgate even make the top 20 by the Digest findings. Again -- laughable. Both layouts are among the ten best in the Garden State. Essex is on the final stages of work by George Bahto / Gil Hanse and the qualities of Forsgate through Charles Banks is clearly missed by those who should know better among the Digets raters.

*Hamilton Farm is a fine layout by Hurdzan / Fry. It is not IMHO a top ten layout in New Jersey. Again, you have situation that is fairly similar to what you see with The Ridge at Back Brook. I don't doubt HF is a top 20 layout in NJ but closer to the rear of that line than the front.

*Shore Gate is no where near being a top 20 course in the Garden State. That is some heavy duty glue sniffing if people really believe that.

I can go on and on with my home state but there are other areas where the Digest panel has gone off the road and crashed upon the rocks of credibility.

*Fenway not rated among the top 25 NY courses ?

*Olde Stonewall is in the top ten of all courses in Pennsy ?

*Scott B already mentioned this but Lawsonia Links not being among the top 10 in Wisconsin ?

*Seven Canyons in Sedona, AZ is the 3rd best course from the Grand Canyon State ? Really. You also have the clear omission of Outlaw / Desert Mtn. from the top 25 in the same state ?

*Great River is #2 in The Constitution State !
Help me out -- I'm falling off the side of the table.

*Bully Pulpit not in the top five in North Dakota ?

*And, best of all, The Kingsley Club is at #20 in Michigan. Ha-ha-ha-ha. Here's a layout that has top 100 written all over it and even Ron Whitten wrote on its unsurpassed qualities.

I would offer the "say it ain't so" line but candidly the ratings that come from Digest are closer to "Laugh In."

[Jim Franklin]

Forsgate isn't even on the list of courses to be rated by GD so maybe they don't want to be included.

[George Pazin]

Bill -

I was able to open the public and by state rankings with Firefox, but not the private rankings. Don't think they required any plugins.

Just tried the private again and it worked this time.

[wsmorrison]

Bill,

My Firefox version is opening the pdf files fine.  Your missing a bunch of things; add a plug-in to the list  

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

I can open the all except the State rankings.  Can anyone post the SC course list?

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Thanks...

[Matt_Ward]

No Bull's Bay in the top 25 from the Palmetto State ?

[DMoriarty]

I still believe all the magazine ratings are fatally flawed.  Yet after skimming the GD list, I cannot help but conclude that I owe Brad Klein and Golfweek an apology.

[rgkeller]

Well, so much for the influence of the "Tree House."

[TEPaul]

Wow, that Golf Digest is good. I was wondering how long it would take them to figure out TCC Brookline was a two for one deal by C.B Macdonald and it was actually in Southampton NY. I knew C.B was modest but not so modest as to be able to keep that from the world for almost 95 years.

[SPDB]

CC of Charleston, which is arguably the best course for miles, reduced to dog track status. Not even mentioned in the Top 25

[Brad Klein]

I haven't had so much fun for a long time. I actually feel bad for someone as dedicated and smart as Ron Whitten that he has to have such a series of odd results to explain away. (Tiger's Eye is better than Pine Needles in NC!) There's no way with 800 or so raters that he can hope to generate accurate and fair and sensible ratings when you are going down to levels of 20-25 in many middle sized states.

You can't explain away the low standing of Friar's Head and Sutton Bay by the fact that they are new. They obviously have "enough" votes (whatever that number is) to make the lists in each state. So raters have seen them. I wouldn't be surprised if, without telling us, there's a lower threshold for the state-by-state lists than for the national top-100 - otherwise, you'd never get enough votes on courses.

I also suspect there's a huge bias towards fancy clubhouses - look at Friars' Head and Kingsley and Wild Horse results. I must say, one of the most astonishing in this regard is the high votes Great Rivers (with its banquet hall clubhouse) gets in Ct - above Yale and Stanwich!

Of course, they are close to GD offices . . .

[Tom_Doak]

Brad:  The clubhouse at Pacific Dunes didn't have to be fancy for the course to rate highly.

You are correct about the threshhold for the national and state lists, I thought everyone understood that by now.  For years DIGEST has placed highly-regarded courses which didn't have enough votes or enough service time for the national top 100 list immediately below the last course in its state to make the top 100.  This explains Friars Head's position precisely, and presumably Sutton Bay's as well [there's no course in South Dakota in the top 100 so it's hard to get a read on where it stands].

[Doug Siebert]

Wow, the ratings for Iowa are a joke as well.  They have Spirit Hollow, an indifferent real estate driven course a few years old ahead of Cedar Rapids CC, a very nice and beautifully maintained Ross!  That's just the tip of the iceberg, but it really stuck out to me, considering that I believe there are two courses that aren't listed within 10 miles of me that are better than Spirit Hollow!  At least they got the #1 right for Iowa, not that this is too difficult, considering the publicity The Harvester receives.

I suppose for states like Iowa, Nebraska and South Dakota one could argue that there so few raters residing in these states and they aren't exactly destinations like California or Florida raters might find themselves in for family vacations or business trips on a regular basis, and thus the few raters who do rate here have a larger amount of say versus the hordes that must rate Pebble Beach or Bethpage.  And maybe they don't leave the timezone much and don't know good architecture from a barbed wire fence!  But that wouldn't really explain the idiocy of their ratings in New York, now would it?

I saw a lot less to object to with the Golfweek ratings*, I think it is going to be awfully hard for anyone to defend Golf Digest's ratings as having any value whatsoever.  These ratings aren't like box office receipts, they are like those "viewer's choice" awards.  And should have just as much meaning to the courses that do well or poorly as winning or not winning a viewer's choice award has to a serious actor or director.

* Just in case there are any thoughts of bias, I am not now and never have been a rater for any magazine, nor do I subscribe to GD or GW.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Tom,

I agree with your statement explaining Friar's Head's position on the NY list.  My understanding is that the club does not support hosting raters at all, which makes it extremely difficult to generate the # of reviews necessary for the top 100 (or Best in State).

If possible, GD should denote which courses have not generated enough reviews to be ranked appropriately.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()