[Scott_Burroughs]

Scott Burroughs,

Are you telling me that you equate a few vague words from Tom Doak about a site that you've never seen, with the aerial and ground level photos posted by John Foley ?

What do you mean I've never seen Stone Eagle?  Pictures of Stone Eagle have been shown several times here (I was one of them), taken both before shaping and during.  Doak talked about the site from those pictures, and he's not normally one to be vague about describing a site.  They are both severe mountainside sites in the desert - and that's all I said.  It is often difficult to get wonderful courses on severe sites.

If you want my opinion, yes, I think someone else could have produced a better course at Cascata on that site.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick;

My comments were meant to be "humorous", but I'll accept "snide".  

Actually, I prefer "acerbic" or even "sardonic".  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat,
I'm going to avoid mentioning Sandpines. No need to do that because I have proven you wrong time and time again!   And while I can't talk about Cascata, lets talk about Quintero and Rees abilities to screw-up a wonderful piece of property there. We can bring in all sorts of topics to this discussion:

-Routing
-Repetition
-Regurgitation

.......and any other subject that starts not only with an "R", but starting from "A" and finishing with "Z."

Also, don't blame me for him being such a horrible golf architect. I'm not the one building these ugly mounds and hump-backed bunkers that look as if they were up-rooted and traded-in by a previous Rees Jones design. You know, like what Atlantic has done.....
 

[johnk]

The design at Cascata, though, is simply lacking. Here you have a site with a disproportionate number of holes running in two ways -- up the hill and down the hill. A few of them are really good -- I'm a fan of the 2nd. But the incessant revisiting of this without really adding something above and beyond that becomes tiresome fairly quickly.

One of the issues that I believe has traction against Rees Jones is that he often superimposes his basic ideas no matter what the site is. After one or two holes the same act gets old. That's something he's been unable to shake and I agree with many of his consistent detractors (some of whom have never played a superior Rees effort although there are a number of them I would recommend) when this is brought up for discussion.

Is the layout worth the $$? That's something only each person can address.

I don't know if anyone else brought this up, but I agree with what Matt is saying above.  From looking at the pictures, I can tell you that Cascata isn't a good deal - BECAUSE YOU CAN PLAY ESSENTIALLY THE SAME HOLES for $40 at Poppy Ridge in Livermore CA.

Other than #14 with the Shadow Creek makeup treatment, the holes look amazingly similar...

Given this look, I'm starting to think Rees' firm and work deserves the pounding he takes here at GCA:
"-Routing
-Repetition
-Regurgitation"

It's kinda sad, because I used to enjoy Poppy Ridge more than I do now...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,

If you want my opinion, yes, I think someone else could have produced a better course at Cascata on that site.
Is your opinion based on your experience of playing the golf course ?[/color]

Tommy Naccarato,

I've never seen Quintero, so I'm not qualified to comment on it.  I'll have to take your word until my travels allow me a visit.
Where is Quintero located ?

However, your assessment of the work at Atlantic is inaccurate.

John Krystynak,

You can tell all of that from a dozen pictures ?
That's an amazing talent.

Did you happen to study the aerial closely ?

[JakaB]

It's kinda sad, because I used to enjoy Poppy Ridge more than I do now...

John,

Has Poppy Ridge changed....when the pundits on this site steal the simple joy of a round of golf it may be time to take a walk...remember...it is easy for a no pay bastard to hate a place because they have no investment...give your heart or dollars to something and you will find yourself looking beyond the warts and flaws and enjoying the good...and the good is still there just like it always was...

[Scott_Burroughs]

Scott,

If you want my opinion, yes, I think someone else could have produced a better course at Cascata on that site.

Is your opinion based on your experience of playing the golf course ?[/b][/color]

Hell, no.  I would never pay $250-$500 + room to play a Rees Jones original design.

I've played perhaps 7-10 of his courses (almost all prior to GCA) and generally, the more recent the design, the less interesting they are.  I also value the (repeated) disappointments of too many others here from their experiences at his other designs.

I DARE him to put in a cross bunker.

[johnk]

JakaB,

Poppy Ridge hasn't changed, and I guess I have.  By myself, I may have become more disdainful of the repetition of greenside bunkering, the lack of interior hazards, the "I can't taste my beer" similarity in the holes, but it's probable that learning to understand why I enjoy certain courses has exacerbated or at least accelerated my disdain...

Rees Jones' marketing efforts at calling the course a "Scottish Heathland" somehow get to me...

Kinda like your "intellectual vs dumbsters" thing in some respects.  BTW, was I day dreaming about flying out to somewhere in Indiana because of some blog offering free golf?  That blog is hard to keep up with, since the entry seems gone now...

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat,
Quintero is about an hour Northwest of Phoenix. Many had me thinking it was going to be a very long drive. I found it to be quite enjoyable as well as saw some really good golf land along the way. If you were to draw a straight line from Scottsdale and go way due west, you would eventually run into Quintero.

The problem with Quintero is simply because its a horrible display of routing a golf course to make sure every hole has a moutain as its backdrop, whether its going uphill or going down hill. Its just not very good golf architecture at all--at least what one would want to write home about.

Most if not all the par 3's are drop shot par 3's of little interest--almost repeticious of one another over and over and over.  Repetition occurs again on the back nine, where parallel running holes are almost exact duplicates of one another--all still with the same mountain back drop for the woo woo factor.

Some of the positives...

Exceptional club with an exceptional staff at an exceptional site in some of the most beautiful arid desert one could ever imagine. I would most defintely go back just to be there again--while leaving my clubs in the truck (my vehicle of choice) I could picture myself laying out there in a (rattlesnake free environment) looking-up at the stars. I would imagine that might be one of the very best aspects of Quintero. Its in the middle of Fumbuck, Arizona, and thats probably its greatest attribute--isolation.

I just wish they would have designed a golf course there.

What they did design was a greenbelt overburdened with all sorts of man-made drainage, and unfortunately as great of a club as its going to be (as far as what seems to be an honestly friendly and enjoyable membership.) They are never going to be able to outlive the golf course they have to play on--and the Norman course, judging from the topos and the plans I saw, doesn't look like it will be much different either. Lots of play from from mountain top to moutain top/bottom of the mountain to the top of the moutain and back down again. Amazing to look at too--just like the back nine at The Falls in Las Vegas.

Is Quintero the worst golf course I have ever seen in my life?

--No way. Its just one of the most over-rated ones, and in fact, its much like Sandpines in regards to the hype of its real worth. I would have loved to see what a Steve Smyers or KBM could have done with the property. I'm sure they would have given them a much bigger bang for the buck--but then again when your trying to sell real estate in the middle of nowhere, that Rees name and persona must have its worth. And to me thats a sad thing. Simply because people will drive and buy anywhere to play a name, but when it comes to quality--everything is out the window.

John Krystynak,
If you were to use a balanced scale rating, where one end of it said Golf and the other end said, Dentist Appointment for a root canal, where would you rate Poppy Ridge?

[johnk]

Tommy,

If Huckaby or Getka or Benham or whomever emailed me asking me if I wanted to meet them there tomorrow, I'd be there in a heartbeat.

No doubt that Poppy Ridge is a good round of golf.
I enjoy it every time - and it costs $35 or so.  I walk
it for the exercise.   It's a fairly serious test of driving and keeping the ball below the hole.

But, if you've played 50+ times, it's not one of those
piles of dirt that endears itself to you.

Perhaps it wears on you that you can't remember which hole is on which nine. Or the fact that 4 outta 6 of the par 3s are copies of each other. Or you just tire of the severe greenside bunkering, which forces high aerial approaches.  

Gib once told me that at least RTJII took some chances at Poppy Hills whereas Rees just failed to do anything risky, unique or special.  At the time, I didn't know enough to know if that was fair.  Having seen more of Rees work in the last 3 years, I'd say Gib was brutally accurate as usual...

PS. I hadn't read most of this thread when I posted originally, and the fact that others independently posted similar complaints about Rees' works is a remarkable coincidence, I think.  I don't think "groupthink" is really to blame here...

[JakaB]

Kinda like your "intellectual vs dumbsters" thing in some respects.  BTW, was I day dreaming about flying out to somewhere in Indiana because of some blog offering free golf?  That blog is hard to keep up with, since the entry seems gone now...

I have a job to do in Terre Haute, IN today of all things so I had to take the offer off of the table.   You got to remember...this was for a tues or weds in January...I didn't want anyone to read it a month from now and misinterperate..

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott Burroughs,

If you've never played or seen Cascata, then your opinion of the golf course is worthless.

As to your ridiculous dare regarding cross bunkers,
Rees put a cross bunker in the 13th fairway at Atlantic.

Perhaps you should look before you leap to conclusions, even erroneous ones.

Tommy Naccarato,

I don't know that I'll be in the Phoenix area any time in the near future, but,if I am, I'll make the effort to get to Quintero.

Is it a housing development or a stand alone private golf course ?

If it's a housing development, does the golf course weave through the homesites, or are the home sites at another nearby location.

Do you have a street address for the club so that I can get aerials and topos ?

Mike Cirba,

I prefer ACIRBAC  

[Scott_Burroughs]

Scott Burroughs,

If you've never played or seen Cascata, then your opinion of the golf course is worthless.

I never said anything about the qualilty of Cascata, I just said that I wouldn't spend a lot of money to play his designs.

As to your ridiculous dare regarding cross bunkers,
Rees put a cross bunker in the 13th fairway at Atlantic.

I knew you were going to bring up #13 at Atlantic.  Me saying "I DARE him to use one" does not in one iota mean that he has NEVER used one.  I just DARE him to use them a little more often than once in a career.  Rees' bunkering style and placement are boring and low in strategy, to me and many others.

You are one of very few people who defend Rees amongst the many rest of us who know that he is supremely mediocre as an original design architect.  He routinely leaves disappointments on good-to-excellent pieces of properties that could have yielded much better, but we also know that you would NEVER admit to that, even if you felt that way.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike Cirba,

I prefer ACIRBAC  

Patrick,

I say "acerbic", you say "acirbac" let's call the whole thing off!    

I figured you'd catch that one!!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Patrick,
Quintero is a housing community, but I would suspect its going to be more on the upper scale of housing. If I remember right, memberships are in the $250,000 range. The couse is routed around the housing or vice versus. Housing losts encircle many of the golf holes as they run up and down the various peaks and valleys.

Some of the repetition and regurgitation:

This comes from the parallel 11th & 12th holes. I actually drove back to the 11th after I came across the same scene at the 12th, just to get this picture, and believe it or not, I had you mind when I did it! Trust me when I say this, it isn't the same picture just taken at a different angle, nor some creative Photoshop work. My feeling is that the golf course became a write-in when it got this point, and judging from the rest of the architecture at Quintero, they may have started here first.....

[pdrake]

If I am correct didn't Norman have some input in Quintero also??  Maybe this bunkering is his doing.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tommy

The housing there is more like 1M plus. Maybe a lot is in the 250K plus range. I'm not sure.

PDrake

Norman had no input on the existing Rees course. He was hired to do the second course there. This project is on hold pending building of the clubhouse.

Steve

[Andy Hughes]

Tommy
I think you are way off the mark there.  The one bunker only has 3 little peninsulas flowing into the sand from the left, while the other has 5.  How you could say therefore there is any repetition is beyond me.
 

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Andy, Your right!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott Burroughs,

I defend Rees on specific issues, just as I've defended Fazio on specific issues.

I"m not one to criticize how a golf course plays without ever having set foot on it, which seems to be an abundant practice on this site.

Vague, global accussations hold no interest for me, but on specific issues, one's I'm familiar with, I'm willing to put forth a counter point of view.

I wouldn't know your motives for making the "dare" statement.
I can only take your typed words at face value.

Tommy Naccarato,

I'm not as offended by the picture of the bunker as you and others appear to be.

How did it fit within the strategic design of the hole ?

How did it play ?

Until I know those answers, I'm unqualified to judge its relative merit.

What you and many others may be missing is this:

Perhaps, this is exactly what the owner/developer wanted.

Most owner/developers, especially ones with millions invested in a large scale housing project, don't give an architect carte blanche.

No owner/developer would risk millions and be willing to be surprised on opening day.

Perhaps the owner/developer saw another Rees Jones course, contacted him and asked him to build a similar golf course at Quintero.

If people are shelling out millions of dollars for a golf/residential community one hour or more outside of phoenix, there must be something of value that they perceive they're getting for their money.

As, I've said, I've never seen or played the golf course, so I'm unqualified to offer an in depth, thorough analysis, as many others are willing to do.  I'm just not that talented.

[Mike Hendren]

Is this the same Quintero that cracked the top 50 on Golfweek's top hundred modern list?  

If so, how do you reconcile your opinion thereof, Tommy, with that of a broader base utilizing a standardized criteria? In other words, is everybody else wrong?

Rees is a regular on the top 100 list.   Would you, and others dismiss his other courses appearing there as well?  

Mike

[Matt_Ward]

Mike H:

You asked Tommy a series of interesting and worthwhile questions. Although you directed them to him I would like to respond from my perspective.

Frankly, many people here on GCA have a very limited understanding of the courses being mentioned. In point of fact -- many people have not played a wide range of courses in a designer's portofolio but feel compelled to weigh in with a definitive assessment on that person's capabilities whether it's pro or con.

I have personally played at least 50 Rees Jones courses nationwide spanning a time frame from the mid-70's to now. Much of what is directed about the shortcomings of his designs is clearly correct from my perspective. However, there are instances where Rees has done a superlative
effort -- a clear example being Olde Kinderhook just south of Albany, New York, to one that comes quickly to mind for me.
In my mind -- it's one of the very best in the Empire State and would easily be included among my top 100 courses in the USA.

Mike, the idea that ratings demonstrates something is difficult to say for sure. I have always questioned the idea that people who have only played course A, B and C cannot really know how course D, E and F stack up when you have completely different voters weighing in. Without some sort of meaningful cross comparison how does one really know what the numbers mean and how the respective raters assess what is a 7 with one course and a 3 with another?

I have played Quintero and concur 100% with Tommy. The course could have -- should have been much better given the site. Much of it is redundant formulaic hole creation that Rees has done elsewhere. It is not refreshingly original as you find with Olde Kinderhook and I would add Nantucket and Ocean Forest -- although those two courses I see being a bit below Olde Kinderhook.

Mike, when you say Rees is a "regular" on the top 100 list I have to say that for many raters there is little effort applied to playing a good number of courses designed by the so-called "lesser" known architects. The work of Baxter Spann at Black Mesa and Kelly Blake Moran at Morgan Hill are two extremely fun and exciting layouts but because the architects in both instances don't have "high name recognition" it's possible -- almost likely -- that few people may take the time to experience what a superlative effort both did with each.

I played Cascata ans frankly the routing is purely one dimensional and lacking. I don't doubt the demands of the site were certainly an issue but the qualities of what that site had versus say what you find at Shadow Creek are clear to me. I was hoping for something more original and clearly beyond the repetitive themes that Rees has seen fit to replicate there.

Cascata is a fine course but the possibilities for something more were lacking IMHO.

[JakaB]

Matt,

If guys like you and Scott and Mike can see with little effort the failed potential of so many courses throughout the nation...Why don't architects give you a call and ask your opinion....or better yet why don't owners request your assistance.

Note: I didn't include Tommy because Forrest had the good sense to call him in...

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Is this the same Quintero that cracked the top 50 on Golfweek's top hundred modern list?  

If so, how do you reconcile your opinion thereof, Tommy, with that of a broader base utilizing a standardized criteria? In other words, is everybody else wrong?

Rees is a regular on the top 100 list.   Would you, and others dismiss his other courses appearing there as well?  

Mike

Mike,
It would be foolish of me to say that all raters think alike, nor should they. In fact, I will go out on a limb here and say I don't think a lot of them really study golf architecture as much as they study rating golf courses. I find that both positive and negative.

I do think what Matt says below, has some merit simply because many of us are willing to corner an architect's style and single it out--as we are doing here. Yes, it helps to see as much work as possible from any given architect--especially when you here a buzz about certain courses in upstate New York; or a coastline piece of property in South Carolina. One should be inspired to see these places if they want to study that architect's body of work, and I'll tell you that I would try to go out of my way to see any of their courses if I have the time and money to do so.

From a Golfweek perspective, I look at those greens at Quintero and thats about the only somewhat positive thing going on, and they aren't all that great either. Ther ejust average. It surely isn't in the bunker work or placement and it certainly isn't the balanced array of golf holes either. What was it that tickled the fancy of the rater when they were there?  Well, it should be no secret that in the last few years, Quintero has dropped lower and lower, on its way out of the ratings. Given the history of the ratings I would suspect in a few years it will eventually drop out for good.

The shaping work and the attention to detail to tie it in to the hills and dales and exisiting terrain is also another point killer for Quintero. But the biggest crime of them all is of course the routing which is similar to a 200 mile tour of the swiss Alps, only this is the Arizona desert and with that beautiful, vibrant and arid desert atmosphere, it is ruined by cart trails that keep you away from the streets of this master-planned community. I'm sure it all works well for the situated houses that will eventually get built, but its situations like this where I think of Pebble Beach and how Golf took the forefront over property values. In the long run it makes a difference as far as how it fares on the Golfweek greatness scale.

One thing Matt fails to tell you when critiquing my assessment of Rees Jones body of work is that I do have a somewhat positive--scratch that! Make that, somewhat nice things to say about Santa Luz in North County, San Diego. Although it has many of the same problems as Quintero, some of them even worse, there are some really excellent strategies going on there; like at the 2nd, 3rd and the........the.......the? ? ? ? ?  Well at least I'm trying! the cart rides are also similar to Quintero's. You follow a winding and turning cart path for what seems like 3/4 of a mile, and when you finally stop at the next tee, your only like 50 yards away from the green of the other hole! Don't ask me to further explain, but Matt will hopefully back this up.  Its pretty ridiculous.

Next time in Vegas, I intend to visit Cascata and see for myself, and I'll probably go to Rio Succo too, just to broaden my views of the round mound of Golf Architecture rebound, Rees Jones.

[Thomas_Brown]

So I deduce - No repeat Naccarato performance in that part of AZ in mid-April?

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