Dave
Some of the more complex greens from famous courses  that have confounded me: #1 NGLA, #13 Crystal Downs, #2 Pinehurst

Jeff
"Again, we basically agree, yet your response sounds contentious.  If you play TOC once, you know which greens slope away.  That wouldn't take hundreds of playings to figure out, would it?"

You make it sound so simple. Many of those greens are complex as far as contours are concerned--internal and around the perimeters.  The fairways expansive, your approach could be coming from any number of angles and distances. The conditions of the wind and ground change often. The greens are enormous creating the potential for many pin positions and approach putts.

Tom Huckaby,

I almost posted about mounds sitting right on the edge of the putting surface - sometimes a chip shot just landing on the green (and your Pasa #2 fits this mold) can veer wildly, depending on a matter of inches, which side of the hill it lands on.  In that case, yes, the course design and green contours can confound.

And, as Tom MacWood says, the large, complex greens at TOC can have similar effects on putts. I can recall a few tryiing to get it just to the top of a ridge, but having it roll back, or putting over a hump, missing just to the wrong side, etc.

I never said it was simple, far from it.  And I agree that the TOC is certainly one course that would require anyone more than a few plays to learn completely.  It took Snead, Hogan and others a long time to learn it, and learn to love it, for that matter.  Tiger seems to have caught on a little quicker, no?  In any event, Shivas is probably thinking of more traditional courses, in less wind, etc.  After all, Chicago's moniker of "The Windy City" refers to politicians, and not the wind.

(OT-Shivas - Out of Chicago's 9Million population, how many votes will be cast on Tuesday?  12 Mill? 20Mil? Its still vote early, and vote often, no? )

The 10th at Riv brings up a situation not mentioned - competitive position at a key point in the round.  The odds of driving the green/making birdie, etc. don't change much, even in varying winds and pin locations, but the percieved need to do it does, based on tournament day, leaderboard position, etc.  Any edge of par hole has this potential.

Semantics time again - does the course or hole confound the golfer, or the notion of par?

Marc,

I believe you've picked an invalid example. All the Tour players (other than that one guy) will tell you that Sandwich isn't a suitable course for a major since the fairways don't bounce right and a perfect shot (down the middle with a driver) will end up off in the rough.

So perhaps in answer to Mr. Schmidt we could say that at the highest levels there isn't a course that better players can't understand after playing a couple of times AMONG THE COURSES SUITABLE FOR A TOURNAMENT THOSE PLAYERS PARTICIPATE IN. The definition is somewhat circular, of course.

Tom Huckaby,

I almost posted about mounds sitting right on the edge of the putting surface - sometimes a chip shot just landing on the green (and your Pasa #2 fits this mold) can veer wildly, depending on a matter of inches, which side of the hill it lands on.  In that case, yes, the course design and green contours can confound.

And, as Tom MacWood says, the large, complex greens at TOC can have similar effects on putts. I can recall a few tryiing to get it just to the top of a ridge, but having it roll back, or putting over a hump, missing just to the wrong side, etc.

Jeff - thanks.  That's exactly what I was trying to get at re #2Pasa... so methinks Dave owes us a beer.  

These instances are few and far between, without a doubt though.  He did just ask for ONE, however....

TH

"And, TEP, I completely agree with you that courses come alive with possibilities with the ideal maintenance meld.  Again, though, isn't that fairly obvious?"

Dave:

Sure, it's obvious as a matter of general fact. What isn't obvious when golf courses such as those mentioned here "come alive" in that way is the multiple complexities (nuances) about their "playabilities" that arise compared to the way they play if they aren't that way. There are literally thousands of little ramifications that surface that effect your thinking, shot selection, shot making, what can happen to your ball in numerous circumstances "through the green", on the green.

In other words, if some golfer, any golfer, can figure out all those potentially influential things (nuances) in a couple of playings of the golf course he'd definitely be more observant and intuitive than any golfer I've ever heard of. When great courses are like that they take a ton of "getting to know".

My own golf course is a good example. I've played it hundreds of times, maybe thousands over the last 30 years and the way we maintain it now, this year, nuances have showed up I just never knew before----tons of them. I get to know new ones every time I go out there.

But if the course was as soft and receptive as it used to always be, well, then, I pretty much knew all there was to know about it about 25-30 years ago! But it's not that way anymore and it takes getting to know all over again. The difference is that now there're hundreds of things that need to be known, when there wasn't before.

This kind of thing is in the architecture of course which can be so different from course to course, but it doesn't really show up or come alive until maintenance practices are used that bring all those nuances out of the architecture. That's why I call this thing the "maintenance MELD---it's when those particular maintenance practices are used (melded into the architecture) that bring various types of courses' inherent architecture alive. The important thing to know is which types of mainteance practices are ideal to bring any particular type of course's architecture alive and into a form of strategically optional equilibrium for that golf course.

If choices are obvious, why does anyone ever make a bad choice?

 
Of course I love the fun way of playing the hole.

BUT... I think it goes beyond being simply a hard shot that doesn't turn out like one wants.  From far back it is that, oh yes it is... But the difficulty is also in discerning which shot to even try, which as we both know is usually pretty easy.  On this hole, one is never really sure what he can count on, and what is the best percentage play.  And it's all due to the confounding ridge running in from the right.

That is, your eye tells you immediately that bouncing it in from the right is the proper play.  Hell, a miss right sure looks like it'ss always gonna be better than a miss left.  BUT then experience tells you you can't count on the ball bouncing back to the left... and dammit, the chip from above and right is gonna be VERY tough, damn near impossible to stop near anything but a far left pin because of how the ground slopes away... So you start thinking flying it at or over the bunker might be a better play.... Then you remember a pull is gonna mean death, as is a hard bounce off the green... So you go back to trying to run it in from the right... and the circle starts over....

To me that's an instance of a confounding choice, caused by the architecture.  It remains rare.  But there it is.

TH

David my man:

First, understand that this isn't about ME, and the shot is WAY WAY WAY longer than 7iron distance.  We're talking 4iron at the very least, sometimes even a wood if the drive goes too far left.  It's often out of the rough, as well.

But anyway, I'm with you on how to approach this and it takes me all of about 2 seconds to just hit it at the bunker, allow for my normal cut, and hope it bounces back left off the ridge.  If it does, great, I'm on the green.  If it doesn't I stand there again amazed at how this cool ridge kicks a ball uphill.  If I pull it, I reload.  If I hit it straight, I hope for blessings from the golf gods that it hits the green and stays, or finds the bunker with a decent lie.  I know my limitations, I know how infrequently I hit shots exactly where I want them, and I know how to play percentages.  Yes, it's not rocket science.  But then again I am also rarely too emotionally tied to the result of any shot.  

To properly assess this, you have to think of it in a serious competitive situation, with a shot hit by a serious golfer who really IS tied to the result of the shot.

And for him, the more he plays the hole, the more perplexing it gets - IF HE REALLY CARES.  Oh sure, a fine way to handle it is to just punt like I do - and maybe that fact will cost me my beer here.  

But you simply can't ask for confounding situations and then chalk up an example of such to "paralysis by analysis" - that's not fair.  You have to allow for a golfer who takes very careful consideration of all options and truly does try to find the best one.

And in this case, the best one really isn't as obvious as it seems at first glance.

If you're gonna tell me no confounding choice exists because with any confusion you just punt and say what the hell, then OK, I won't get a beer from you.

But that simply can't be your point here.  That's way too easy.

If that is your point, then I agree and the beer is on me.  But it's gonna be a freakin' Old Style light due to how weak your point is.  

Great stuff.  I've now added my deal before yours, so you and all the world can see why we ought to play well as a team there:

1.  Inevitable disaster.  Dump drive in trees.  Screw up 2nd.  Scrape on.  3 whack.  Nice double.
TH:  I have no right to play a hole this difficult as well as I do, but I've made more 4s than 5s on this hole... very few 6s... don't think I've ever made a 3, but that's OK - 4 wins a LOT of the time.

2.  I've hit balls so far left and right that I couldn't hit a 5 iron from one to the other!  The epitome of popcorn golf.
TH - same deal as 1.  I've got you covered, bruthah.

3. That shot doesn't phase me and I usually play this one OK.
TH - it sure as hell fazes me.  Carry me and don't hurt your back.

4. By this point in the round, I've given up and have played this hole under par in the aggregate, probably -2.
TH:  I tend to play this hole well also.  We rule.

5.  I never seem to club this hole right.  Plus, half the time, I'm doing the post birdie f-up thing.
TH: UH-OH.. this is trouble.  I never hit enough club on this hole also, and on the rare occassion I hit the green can't seem to make any putts.  We just try to hang on here.  Maybe we can convince each other to hit the proper club.  it does play very long.

6.  The day I hit a good drive on this hole will be the first. It's funny.  If I hit my good drive here, I'm at least 60/40 to make birdie, but I never hit it good here for some reason.
TH - a push-slice the other day notwithstanding, I generally hit great tee shots and this hole.  So let me go first and keep it in play.  One of us will make 4.

7.  I play this one OK.
TH - thank god, I rarely do.

8.  Same.
TH - ditto re 7.  Teach me to putt this damn green.

9.  Varies.  I've played it well and like a total idiot.
TH - you and me both.  We pray to the golf gods that we are not taking the idiot role.

10. I play this hole well, generally.  Probably under par, total.  I think that last time out there, I talked Joel and Pete Galea and our 4th into playing a dime a point scotch game on the 10th tee and proceeded to stiff one and make 3.
TH - your hole again, bruthah.  Too long and requiring too much hook for me, and the green also has me spooked.  Keep the back strong.

11.  Varies.  I've made bird and X.
TH - I tend to only get the Xs.  Carry me, oh great one.  No X for you this time.

12.  Why the hell can't I play this hole?  It's fricking easy.  I always have a wedge in, no matter what I hit off the tee.  Oh, wait! That answers my question: "I always have a wedge in.  Nuff said.
TH - leave this one to me - I usually can make 4, have made many 3s.

13.  Varies. Birdies and snap hooks into junk.
TH - I can usually manage a 5.  Again, I'm Mr. Safety, you take a rip at a drive and reaching the green.

14.  Usually play this one pretty good.
TH - me too, for whatever reason... it is a tough hole.  But again, we rule.

15.  Varies.  I've made 2 and X.
TH:  uh, me too.  Have to hope Mr. Ham and Mr. Egg are present.

16.  I've made 3 but nothing worse than 5, so on the whole, it ain't so bad.
TH:  WHEW!  I now have that 3, but I surely have made more than 5 plenty of times.

17.  #%^%&^*@$%!@%^^&!!
TH - leave it to me.  Again, two gags the other day notwithstanding, I can handle this hole.

18.  Varies.  pars and doubles.  Story of my life.
TH - I promise I won't make more than 4.  You make a par and we're good.