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Joe Bausch

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Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #475 on: December 11, 2007, 10:32:16 AM »
Here are the low resolution versions of the six photos Mike obtained from the Daillin Library.

This one is from May 30, 1928 and shows holes 1, 2, part 3, and 18.



Here is one from July 31, 1930, with McCall Field course (a Ross then Flynn) off to the right:



One from August 7, 1935, a similar view to the one above:



Here's a flat-earth society view of the holes across the street from the clubhouse, this from October 15, 1939 (McCall is in full view to the left; those that are curious, McCall appears to have hardly changed one bit, except for the 2nd hole green is much farther in this photo, suggesting that hole was once a par 4 instead of now as a par 3):



Here are two more views from that same day, October 15, 1939:






« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 11:04:51 AM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

mike_malone

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Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #476 on: December 11, 2007, 10:54:22 AM »
 Joe,

   That third photo shows a nice view of #13 as a par five.

   For the casual observer it is the hole running from top to bottom on the photo on the far right portion. The trees in the middle are around #9 and then it falls off quickly to the fairway for #13.

 It looks like a fun hole because on the tee shot you try to keep it right avoiding the trees on the left and have it roll down into the fairway, then face decisions about whether you can get it up the ridge on your second shot for a view of the green on your approach.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 11:06:29 AM by michael_malone »
AKA Mayday

Joe Bausch

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Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #477 on: December 11, 2007, 11:04:16 AM »
Joe,

   That third photo shows a nice view of #13 as a par five.

It does, but I believe it does not show it in the original fashion.  That 1935 photo suggests the tee for the 13th is no longer on the other side of the creek but rather is in front of the current #7 tee.  But you can see the remnants of the fairway near the creek as it originally ran.  You can even see where the original par 3 14th once ran.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

mike_malone

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Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #478 on: December 11, 2007, 11:16:12 AM »
 The way people hit the ball today they probably would want to consider recovering that old length as much as possible to keep drives away from #9 green. But, I love how the hill kept balls from that area.
AKA Mayday

Phil_the_Author

Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #479 on: December 11, 2007, 02:25:24 PM »
Another tidbit in the evolution of the creation of Cobb's Creek comes from the column penned by Hazard (Tilly's pseudonym) in the March 1913 issue of The American Golfer.

On p.427 he writes, "One prominent man gives me this opinion, "There is not a chance in the world. The commissioners declare that the construction of the course would necessitate the cutting down of many old trees and this they positively refuse to do. When Mr. A.W. Tillinghast, who has been the chief advocate of the public course in his golf editorials [confirmation he was Joe Bunker], heard this comment of the commissioners, he ridiculed the idea and pointed out the ease which with the course could be built on ground which is now wasted, without disturbing a tree. He suggested that several courses might be mapped out and submitted to the authorities, showing, not one, but several layouts, which would interfere in no way with the policy and traditions of the park."  
   
It seems that tilly did submit some preliminary designs to the park commissioners... I wonder if you guys might come across any of these in your records search...

Joe Bausch

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Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #480 on: December 11, 2007, 02:38:45 PM »
PY:  that's good info.  I've not found anything like that thus far in my research of early Philly Inky articles, but I'm confident there are many other sources of info out there.  We'll likely be seeing some of them real soon.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Bill Hagel

Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #481 on: December 11, 2007, 05:36:34 PM »
Great Photos

In the 1930 aerial:

Where is the then 9th (todays 7th green) can't seem to make it out?

You can see where 14 was - the tee before it was decommissioned is right where the putt-putt course is today and it looks like the green may have been situated right where the tributary (coming from McCall) and Cobbs confluence before heading toward the 13th (then) tee.

Any other data on why 14th was taken out and when 17th was put in play - and who designed 17?  It sure looks like Flynn bunkering to me (Wayne?).  I know the 17th came in between 1921-1928 - isn't that about the time Flynn was bunkering Merion?

Eric Pevoto

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Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #482 on: December 11, 2007, 07:19:17 PM »
Isn't it strange that all the bunkers are short/long of the green?  Simple cut bunkers; all on the low side (except 16, flat).  Pretty rudimentary features; I doubt that's Flynn.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 07:31:12 PM by Eric Pevoto »
There's no home cooking these days.  It's all microwave.Bill Kittleman

Golf doesn't work for those that don't know what golf can be...Mike Nuzzo

Kyle Harris

Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #483 on: December 11, 2007, 07:22:15 PM »
Isn't it strange that all the bunkers are short/long of the green?  Simple cut bunkers.  I doubt that's Flynn.

Mike and I had some discussion about this yesterday. Most of the rear bunkers where there to prevent balls from rolling into adjoining holes (in the case of 9 and 13, keeping balls off the 14th, for example).

I would think shapes and bottoms were kept simple because the course was under the auspices of the park and not a dedicated green superintendent. William Flynn could give Merion's bunkers the attention they needed. Fairmount Park may not have been able to.

They are definitely idiot proofed, that's for sure.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #484 on: December 11, 2007, 08:41:56 PM »
Joe,

Thanks for pinch-hitting today and getting those aerials up. ;D

Philip,

If we come across any of the proposed Tilly layouts, you'll certainly be the first to know.

Bill Hagel,

The green for the old #9 is visible right behind the tree(s) that are behind today's #8 tee.   There were no bunkers at the time at that green.

We don't know yet who designed #17 but the time period could have indicated Flynn...or even possibly Wilson.   We'll be doing more research later this month and should be able to learn more.  In any case, the bunkering on this hole is Flynn-like, I'd agree, but there are few cases on the course where that comparison could be made...possibly #2, but...that leads me to;

Eric/Kyle,

Similar to Seaview, and perhaps even Merion East (I'm unclear here, but suspect it's so), Cobb's Creek was laid out with very little bunkering when it opened.

Some of the thinking back then, which seems pretty sound on the face of it, was that one needed to see how the course played before adding a lot of artificial hazards, particularly when the land offered plenty of natural challenges and hazards.

In the case of Seaview, for whatever reason 2 years after Wilson designed it, Clarence Geist (who was also on the GAP Commission working to bring public golf to Philly) brought in Donald Ross to do the bunkering scheme, who was helped by the inhouse professional Wilfred Reid.   It's probable that Wilson was simply too busy with Cobbs Creek at the time, given that he spent SIX months on the layout, which was a huge shock to me.

I'm beginning to learn that Hugh Wilson was a very meticulous, detailed, fastidious, and likely perfectionist man, and it now seems much different to me when I think about the stories of him having Joe Valentine lay bedsheets in positions around the Merion course so that he could see what any proposed bunker might look like to the golfer's eye.

Along with that very disciplined methodology for course building, there were additional reasons for exercising caution in overburdening Cobbs Creek with artificial hazards and bunkering.  As Tillinghast explained in July of 1916, in an article where he said of the island-green 12th "Possibly there is not a prettier hole in the country from the purely scenic standpoint";

"Everything is new, but in another year or two the course will be as fine a test of golf as any one will wish.   Very little bunkering has been done yet and the course will not be made harder for a year or so, for those who laid it out realize that it will be played over by a host of persons who have never played golf before, and no effort will be made to make it too difficult for them until they have reached the point where their golf will admit of stiffer bunkering."

A number of other accounts of the time indicate that this was the thinking but also suggest that this was such good and challenging golfing ground, with such a number of "natural" hazards (the creek came into play on six holes), that the course was indeed not in need of more.   Tillinghast spoke of this in another article when he stated, "There are so many natural hazards that this problem has not been much of a bother to the golf architects."

In fact, most of the bunkers that are in place today, with the exception of those on 2, 10, and 17 would likely qualify as "saving" bunkers, where they prevent balls from running into even more difficult positions, either of which might serve to 1) delay play, and/or 2) put the golfer in such a disadvantageous position that he 1) delays play.  ;)

And, even from the very beginning the course did prove challenging...immensely so.   In the first tournament held there the winner finished around 161 for two rounds...and won by 9 shots!

In the 1928 USGA Publinx tourney, ten over par for two rounds won medal.

Even during the 50s when the PGA tour came to town for the Daily News Open and played on today's course at around 6200 yards, (somewhat ironically for purposes of this discussion, BILLY CASPER played), the winning scores for four rounds were +2 and -3.  

In an article I can't find at the moment, Cobbs Creek professional Horace Gamble around 1920 or so started a local brouhaha when he had the temerity to suggest that Cobbs Creek was a more difficult test of golf than Pine Valley.

After a firestorm of local backlash from the private clubs in Philadelphia, Gamble tried to explain himself in a more politically correct fashion by saying that Cobbs Creek had much more challenge in the way of "natural" hazards, where Pine Valley needed to incorporate extensive bunkering, and that in tournament competitions, he had fared far better scorewise playing Pine Valley than he was ever able to at Cobbs Creek.

Tommy N,

Do you still need me to send the jpg files, or can you grab them here?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 08:49:27 PM by MPCirba »

Kyle Harris

Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #485 on: December 11, 2007, 08:47:01 PM »
I find somewhat juxtaposed the esteem a lot of GAP clubs and individuals had for Cobb's Creek as compared to the private courses in Philadelphia.

Ironic, that most of the information regarding the attribution of Cobb's Creek comes from an article by Tillinghast under Psuedonym that admonishes and criticizes the players of Cobb's Creek from forming a club to participate in GAP events! The article had this attitude like, "We gave them a golf course and now they want to compete with us, the nerve!"

Joe Bausch

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Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #486 on: December 11, 2007, 08:54:21 PM »
Mike, the article you read referring to Horace Gamble was written by Perry Lewis with this citation:

Paper: Philadelphia Inquirer, published as The Philadelphia Inquirer; Date: 03-25-1919; Volume: 180; Issue: 84; Page: 12; Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

The original article to which this one was referring was a Sunday or two earlier (March 16, 1919) but the database that I have access to for early Inquirer articles occasionally is missing a day here or there... and this Sunday happens to be one of them.  But don't worry, I have that year coming on microfilm so we can see exactly what he said.  :-)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #487 on: December 11, 2007, 09:05:20 PM »
Joe,

Thanks...it's a great article.

Kyle,

I'm not sure I read the same level of disdain and condescension in the article that you did, and it seems to me that Tillinghast believed the formation of a private club within a public course setting would have led to the type of unequal rights to the course and preferential treatment that was inconsistent with the whole idea of a course for the masses.

He also seems concerned that a number of players who could afford to join a private club would glom on to Cobbs Creek at $10 a year locker fees instead of joining a private club and paying fees of $40-50, thereby cheapening those institutions.

His whole treatise is much too long for me to reproduce here, but if you have a way of getting it online it's interesting reading and certainly somewhat indicative of class structure thinking of the time, admittedly.

Dan Hermann,

I'm sorry...I just saw your post from the other day and completely missed it in all of the activity.   Let me know when you'd like to get together and go over there.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 09:09:05 PM by MPCirba »

Kyle Harris

Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #488 on: December 11, 2007, 09:15:21 PM »
I'm not sure if it was disdain, but I gathered from the article that the players were attempting to form a club for the purpose of membership in the GAP to play in the events. That Mr. Bunker was so perplexed and went on to cite what the GAP did for the club seemed a bit disingenuous, why not just come out and give the reasons and perhaps even offer an alternative method.

Definitely off the topic, just struck me as somewhat ironic.

I sincerely believe he felt threatened by some of the talent that may have been developing, especially if the difficulty of the course was held in such high esteem!

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #489 on: December 11, 2007, 09:16:29 PM »
Hey Tommy Nac...

Where's that promised thing that's going to make mine and Joe's head spin on an axis?   8)

Joe Bausch

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Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #490 on: December 11, 2007, 09:21:42 PM »
Hey Tommy Nac...

Where's that promised thing that's going to make mine and Joe's head spin on an axis?   8)

Mike, the problem is his head is spinning so fast in the other direction from the fine showing this past football season of that school in northwestern Hoosier-land that he has to be careful.  ;)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Kyle Harris

Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #491 on: December 11, 2007, 09:22:58 PM »
OJ should have escaped to South Bend this past season, no one would ever look for a football player there.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #492 on: December 11, 2007, 09:29:52 PM »
Guys,

Did I mention that this thread is a COFODIFRZ (college football discussion free zone)?    :-X

Besides, I can't think of a single team out there besides Hawaii that has any right to talk trash at the moment.  Talk about collective meltdowns at the threshold of greatness!   :-[ :'( :(

There I go breaking my own rule.

Hugh Wilson would be displeased!!!   >:(



 ;)


Kyle Harris

Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #493 on: December 11, 2007, 09:33:37 PM »
I'd really like to get in depth about the bunkering and perhaps discuss how the attitude Wilson had with regard to the Cobb's bunkering may have changed if it were today.

Do we restore the original designs or attempt to anticipate the "spirit" of the bunkering. I don't think bunkers should be added or subtracted, but from those aerials, the bunkers had a little more character than they do presently.

To what extent should that character be interpreted?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #494 on: December 11, 2007, 09:49:06 PM »
Kyle,

That's a really good question and I've thought about it a lot today.   Especially considering the fact that today almost all of us are such bunker afficianado's (with the possible exception of Sean Arble, and on a philosophical level, Tom Paul) and most of us can't conceive of a great course with little or no bunkering.  

For many of us, it's how we define strategy.  (i.e. drive it close to the bunker, get a dog biscuit)  ;)

And, from a marketing perspective, it would certainly add some splash, flash, and pizazz to any "restoration" PR, as it would certainly look wonderful to view rough-hewn Flynnsian bunkers cut across those hillsides in the press photos.

And, given some of the potential folks involved, they would certainly all do a fine job in emulating both the style and strategic substance exhibited by both Wilson and Flynn.

However, I have to wonder if that's the purpose here...

For instance, Hugh WIlson lived another eight years after Cobbs Creek opened.   During that time he never saw fit to come back over and fuss with it.

And, this is not Bethpage Black, nor is it Harding Park, or East Lake.   This course is not being restored to host some touring professionals 4 days every 10 years, but if we can pull it off, it's being restored because this was Hugh Wilson, and George Crump, and the Philadelphia School of Design, and because the course has wonderful historic value, and historic civil rights value, and golf value.   If we're able to restore Cobbs Creek, it should be because it's the right thing for us to do as golfers who care about the game living in this region.

And, ultimately, because the people who will be playing Cobbs Creek now and in the future are largely the same ones who have been playing it for the past 91 years...the little guy, the average guy, and the guy who stands on the elevation of the 18th tee and views the city skyline and suddenly feels interconnected with the larger whole that is the character of this metropolis, and for that person, and for 99.9% of the rest of us, the challenge of the course that Hugh Wilson and friends laid out is more than enough.

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #495 on: December 11, 2007, 09:51:22 PM »
Doesn't it look like the 9th green (and possibly the 10th tee) would be very much in play for players coming up the 13th?

Kyle,

I had a long talk about that very topic last night with one of the members of our team.  I'm of the opinion that the most defensible option would be to only restore Wilson's bunkers.  That being said, I have very little problem deepening, slightly expanding or moving them closer to the green surfaces to add a little character.

The tougher question to tackle is whether Hugh ever got the opportunity to bunker the course the way he would have liked.  As others have noted, they initially didn't place many hazards on the course for a test period and the existing bunkers on the aerials look rudimentary.  If research uncovers that the bunkering was never implemented by Wilson et. al, then I think we at least have to consider letting a seasoned architect some latitude to bunker the course in the "spirit" of Wilson.  We are lucky to have a number of articles written by a talented architect describing what Wilson's team was trying to accomplish and their is a sterling example of his work only a few miles away.

Kyle Harris

Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #496 on: December 11, 2007, 09:56:37 PM »
Looking at some of those aerials shows me the bunkers have shrunk a bit (especially those around the ninth green) to the point where today, any strategic or "shock" value of their appearance has dwindled.

I think any bunker restoration needs to focus on how they fit in the general sense of "scale" with the place. I don't think it's a coincidence that the preponderance of bunkering lies on the flatter areas of the golf course.

I think a good start would be expanding and deepening the bunkers that are to the front and rear of the old 16th hole, for example. Based on the perspective of the one aerial, it would appear the some "anti 13th at Merion" action was involved there.

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #497 on: December 11, 2007, 09:57:56 PM »
For instance, Hugh WIlson lived another eight years after Cobbs Creek opened.   During that time he never saw fit to come back over and fuss with it.

Mike,

Maybe the course was just too difficult or the pace of play was too slow for Wilson to go back and bunker it the way he wanted.  I think that's the most probable reason.  He also may have grown distant from the operators of the golf course, grown weary of the FPC's bureaucracy/restrictions or focused his attention back on other projects.  There are a number of reasons that could emerge.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 09:58:19 PM by Geoffrey_Walsh »

Kyle Harris

Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #498 on: December 11, 2007, 09:58:46 PM »
Doesn't it look like the 9th green (and possibly the 10th tee) would be very much in play for players coming up the 13th?

Kyle,

I had a long talk about that very topic last night with one of the members of our team.  I'm of the opinion that the most defensible option would be to only restore Wilson's bunkers.  That being said, I have very little problem deepening, slightly expanding or moving them closer to the green surfaces to add a little character.

The tougher question to tackle is whether Hugh ever got the opportunity to bunker the course the way he would have liked.  As others have noted, they initially didn't place many hazards on the course for a test period and the existing bunkers on the aerials look rudimentary.  If research uncovers that the bunkering was never implemented by Wilson et. al, then I think we at least have to consider letting a seasoned architect some latitude to bunker the course in the "spirit" of Wilson.  We are lucky to have a number of articles written by a talented architect describing what Wilson's team was trying to accomplish and their is a sterling example of his work only a few miles away.

Steve,

I pointed out to Mike on the phone yesterday that we need to possibly consider Hugh Wilson's health and outside influences on his life during this time - even the completion of Pine Valley. I read in one article that he resigned as the Green Chair at Merion to tend to his business.

I wonder if Cobb's Creek could be Wilson's unfinished symphony.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #499 on: December 11, 2007, 10:00:08 PM »
Doesn't it look like the 9th green (and possibly the 10th tee) would be very much in play for players coming up the 13th?


Geoff, I think I might have addressed this earlier in the thread.  None of those aerial photos are from the real early years.  I think not long after the course opened the 13th changed and did not tee off from the other side of the creek to run pretty much along side the water.  If you look closely at the earliest of those aerials, you can sort of see where the fairway probably used to run and the 9th green and 10th tee would not be very much in play.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

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