[mike_malone]

The CBS guys were discussing this today about a line around Rory's ball. At least one of them suggested that it should not be legal.This confirms that they are all reading gca.com

[TEPaul]

"My participation in this thread has been about trying to come up with the reasoning behind the USGA's decision not to ban it (for now)."

Chris:

You did see that reasoning from an expert USGA Rules official a page or two back, didn't you?

Mayday:

The CBS commentator did not say he thought it should be illegal. I doubt a TV commentator would be that thoughtlessly opinonated about the Rules of Golf on air. What he said was that perhaps the USGA might deem it to be illegal some day.

[CHrisB]

"My participation in this thread has been about trying to come up with the reasoning behind the USGA's decision not to ban it (for now)."

Chris:

You did see that reasoning from an expert USGA Rules official a page or two back, didn't you?

Yes I did:

And now for the elusive reasoning and rationale for excepting the golf ball from the operation of Rule 8-2b.

The USGA/R&A apparently feels that, "the ball is marked by the manufacturer in many ways and there is no practical way to regulate this.  But that is where the "line" is drawn."

Again, by analogy to Dec 20-3a/2 a player's "identification" mark or line is treated the same way via Rule 8-2b as a manufacturer's trademark or markings.

I think it's a fair explanation but apparently some others do not so we've been continuing the debate for a few pages since that post of yours.

(By the way, unlike that thread about C.B. Macdonald and #10 at Merion from earlier this year, I'm actually still learning new things after 18-19 pages of this thread, so it hasn't been a waste of time like that one turned out to be. )

[John_Cullum]

If Shivas ever plays golf with Jim Furyk, his head will explode.
 between the cheater line and that annoying pre putt routine.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The positions I do have related to this issue are:
(i) the cheater line is not against the rules as currently written, and so anyone doing it is not cheating,


That's not true.
8-2 b is clearly open to interpretation due to the current language, which is ambiguous.

"A MARK must NOT be placed ANYWHERE to INDICATE a LINE FOR PUTTING"[/color]

(ii) the USGA must have a reasoned argument for not banning it,

Not necessarily.
The issue of a cheater line has only reared its head recently.
It's quite possible that the issue HASN'T come up for discusson yet[/color]

(iii) I'd rather not have the additional burden of monitoring my competitors aligning their golf balls (though certainly I will take on that burden if the rule is changed), and


Irrespective of your preferences, you can't pick and choose which rules to monitor, you have to monitor all of them.[/color]

(iv) banning the cheater line, while seemingly an easy thing for the USGA to do, wouldn't be as simple as a lot of people think because of new issues/problems that would come up.


I'd disagree with that.[/color]

But as you say, "where there's a will there's a way", so we'll have to see if the USGA's will on this issue can ever be changed or not.

Chris, I think one of the handicaps that the USGA works under is the rotating nature of the Executive Committee.
It's hard to establish continuity of thought and principle.
It's a revolving door situation and that's one of the reasons that I feel that some of these issues aren't addressed more expeditiously.[/color]

[JESII]

The positions I do have related to this issue are:
(i) the cheater line is not against the rules as currently written, and so anyone doing it is not cheating,


That's not true.
8-2 b is clearly open to interpretation due to the current language, which is ambiguous.

"A MARK must NOT be placed ANYWHERE to INDICATE a LINE FOR PUTTING

Finally, someone willing and able to bring up this issue in a competitive situation. Patrick, I can't think of someone I would rather nominate to call this penalty on a playing competitor than you.  

What is your next event which will be governed by the rules of the USGA?

I'd rather you do this in a formal competition so the other player can't really just say screw you and continue with their round...

I did read that correct, didn't I?

In the quoted section you told Chris Brauner that it is not true that the rules do not currently consider this practice cheating?  Thanks, just looking forward to the update when you actually follow through on your statements on here...

[Patrick_Mucci]

"To paraphrase JFK, "some men look at things and ask "why", others look at things and say, "why not"."

First of all, Patrick, it wasn't JFK who used that line all the time it was RFK. Another example of how you're almost always wrong. Actually, RFK used that line so much at the end of his speeches it was used by the press as a signal to cut and run out of his speeches to get good seats on the bus.

The original author of the remark was George Bernard Shaw.

As RFK's older brother, JFK used the remark while RFK was still in school.[/color]

"Where there's a will, there's a way.
I don't think that the USGA's silence on the issue is a signal that they endorse your position.
The USGA can dictate logo size and intent, prohibit straight lines, clarify how golfers should mark/ID their ball, and prevent aiding with alignment.
It's really quite simple."

Yeah, right, Patrick. You think it's that simple, do you?

YES[/color]

A remark like that has got to come from a man who has never gone about making a written proposal to the USGA to actually CHANGE a Rule of Golf. Why don't you just put what you wrote there in a written proposal to the USGA and see what they say about it. If you expect them to say: "Hey, great idea, let's just do it" you are going to be very sadly mistaken.  

Sometimes you're better off NOT making a written proposal.
Remember, there are OTHER ways to skin a cat[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Finally, someone willing and able to bring up this issue in a competitive situation. Patrick, I can't think of someone I would rather nominate to call this penalty on a playing competitor than you.  

I was officiating for the USGA while you were still in diapers.

The language needs clarity, either through a rewrite or a decision.[/color]

What is your next event which will be governed by the rules of the USGA?

I'd rather you do this in a formal competition so the other player can't really just say screw you and continue with their round...

Since you're unfamiliar with how the process works, there's an officials meeting prior to the competition when issues such as this are discussed and a determination is made as to how a rule will be interpreted for the tournament.

With respect to a player saying, "screw you" to an official, perhaps you're not familiar with rule 33-7.[/color]

I did read that correct, didn't I? In the quoted section you told Chris Brauner that it is not true that the rules do not currently consider this practice cheating?  

JES II, please have one of your kids read what I wrote.
I stated that the language is clearly ambiguous.
I then quoted rule 8-2 b, capitalizing the words that make it ambiguous.[/color]

Thanks, just looking forward to the update when you actually follow through on your statements on here...

See the above responses, but, have one of your kids close by to explain them to you.[/color]

[JESII]

Pat,

What probably explains your selective recognition is that you were officiating USGA events when my father was in diapers...

[Patrick_Mucci]

JES II,

That's possible.

Don't forget that with the onset of Alzheimer's you meet new people every day.

Let the kids stay up late tonight, I'll be typing more.

[JESII]

Would I, at 32, be a little on the young side to deal with alzheimers? Could there be another explanation?


Back tp the topic...agreed, the wording is ambiguous, but a 'cheater-line" user is not currently a cheater...

Agreed?

[JR Potts]

Not necessarily.
The issue of a cheater line has only reared its head recently.
It's quite possible that the issue HASN'T come up for discusson yet[/b][/color]

Why is this a recent problem?  I'm thirty, have been playing golf for 25 years and have always putted using a "cheater" line.  Back in the day I would draw a line over the Maxfli and use that.  In fact, that was the way I was taught.

This issue has been around since the last cicada cycle.  I think the USGA's silence on the issue for at least the last two decades indicates where it is coming from.

I'll step back from my computer now and duck....

[Bryan Izatt]

For a "cheater line" to be cheating, does it not have to infer some unfair benefit in using it?  Is there any evidence (or even experience) that its use actually makes a measurable difference?  

I use a line (applied with one of those spinning sweet spot finders, so I'm probably doubly damned) and my putting is mediocre at best.  I find that trying to hit the putt over a (pre-existing) mark on the green is probably just as effective as using the line to align the putt.  

I do think that balls aligned with the spun line roll truer.  But, if the line of the putt is wrong (as mine is more often than not) then the ball just more purely misses the hole.  

[TEPaul]

Chris Brauner said:

"The positions I do have related to this issue are:
(i) the cheater line is not against the rules as currently written, and so anyone doing it is not cheating."

Patrick Mucci responded:

"That's not true.
8-2 b is clearly open to interpretation due to the current language, which is ambiguous.
"A MARK must NOT be placed ANYWHERE to INDICATE a LINE FOR PUTTING"."

Patrick:

That response by you is what fundamentally amazes me about most of this thread and particularly two of the primary contributors, you and Shivas.

The entire basis of the Rules of Golf is to be able to render a final opinion on any situation or rules question pertinent to a competition. There are distinct mechanisms and procedures for this contained within the Rules of Golf and particularly in the Rule (33) on "The Committee", and its related language in The Appendix. The entire purpose is to be able to render an interpretation so that something will not be constantly and continuously argued with no resolution. This is a most important element and purpose of the Rules of Golf and despite playing golf and competitive golf for years it's something that has apparently totally escaped you and Shivas.

Chris Brauner who is clearly an experienced competitor seems to be aware of it and to understand it.

The USGA has a permanent Rules Committee and they even have someone at the Rules desk to answer and interpret the Rules of Golf in real situations if need be at any time.

Their opinion and interpretation is not just some other interpretation, it is in fact the "official" interpretation of the Rules of Golf and within the mechanism of their procedure it is also the final opinion of Rules situations.

That official interpretation on this subject of whether a line on a golf ball used for the purposes of indicating a line of putt has been rendered and that official interpretation is that this practice at this time is not a violation of Rule 8-2b. Even the official reason and rationale has been given.

The fact that neither you nor Shivas can seem to understand this is a classic example of both how and why you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the R&A/USGA Rules of Golf.

This is not open to your interpretation at this time because the USGA's interpretation which is the official interpretation has been rendered. If you don't like their interpretation an appeal and perhaps a written proposal to them to promote your interpretation and to request that they officially adopt your interpretation is always open to you or anyone else. Whether or not you prevail in that proposal to change a Rule of Golf or an interpretation is another matter. But until that time and that occurence their interpretation is official and yours is not.

Using a mark on a golf ball to indicate the line for putting is not a violation of Rule 8-2b. It is no longer open to interpretation in an official sense. That practice now used is not cheating in the context of the R&A/USGA Rules of Golf. That is their official interpretation on this subject.

And if you don't like that or don't agree with it then make a formal appeal and Rules change proposal to the USGA or start your own Rules of Golf.

This fundamental way of doing things via the Rules of Golf is, my friend, frankly most of the entire idea in which rests that old fashioned "spirit" of the game of golf---eg that no individual golfer tries to assert himself and his individual opinions over others and that the final authority rests within  interpretations by "The Committee" on the Rules of Golf. In St Andrews, Scotland, particularly, this fact and concept and spirit as well as this mechanism of "The Committee" is as old as golf rules themselves. And we most certainly do not need to change that now.

[Neil_Crafter]

Gentleman
I have been a quiet observer of this thread but I have been away in Tasmania the last four days and have missed another five or more pages. I was at Greg Ramsay's 'Ratho' in Bothwell where he put on the inaugural Australian Hickory Championship. The balls we all played with were new 'old' balls, reproduction gutta percha balls. These had a grooved pattern but I found interesting was one particular groove that went entirely around the equator of the ball - a perfect 19th Century cheater line. I have to admit that I did use it on occasions to align a putt. Not sure it gave me any help, but there it was if you wanted it.

BTW, I read the relevant rule of placing a mark as referring to the green and not to the ball, but that's only after 40 years of reading golf rule books.
cheers Neil

[TEPaul]

"Neil:  you must have missed the part where TEP told us all that regardless of our own particular levels of reading comprehension skills, our own interpretations are utterly irrelevent!    

Indeed they are. The R&A/USGA Rules of Golf Committees are the ultimate writers and interpreters of the Rules of Golf, and not you or Neil. It appears, however, that Neil is a bit more in tune with the way the R&A and USGA interpreters interpret this Rule.  


"John, you've played with me, so no you know...hit it, find it, hit it, find it...hook it, pull it, shove it, blade it, chunk it, whatever...but keep fricking moving...mark it if it's in someone's way on the green..,if not, leave it, putt it, putt it, putt it...   on to the next..."


I have no problem at all playing with people who play like that but I do if they try to make everyone else play the same way they do.

[CHrisB]

What is up with this persistent desire some of you have to get away with everything you can get away with by conjuring up all these cock-a-mayme schemes to try to push the envelope and bend, if not outright break, the rules?

Shivas,

That's exactly why I brought up the single dot and all the other stuff (V's, arrows, dots, shapes, etc.) -- the argument is that regulating the use of ID marks and how player place the ball on the green is impractical (and apparently the USGA agrees for now), and reasons for this may include:

(i) that there indeed will be all these "cock-a-mayme" schemes, some of which will be difficult to detect, if people want to break the rule,

but just as importantly,

(ii) even if players aren't trying to break the rule, there are all sorts of ways that players can place their ball so that the ball actually does indicate the line for putting.

Remember that "intent" doesn't really matter when it comes to rules situations. For example, it doesn't matter whether a player "intends" to tee off in front of the tee markers or not--he incurs a penalty. But here's the key difference:

The guideline for determining if a player tees off in front of the markers is crystal clear--draw a line connecting the front of each tee marker, and if the entire ball is in front of that line, he incurs a penalty.

But what is the crystal clear guideline for determining if a mark on a ball indicates a line for putting? I mean, look at this thread--you and Patrick Mucci don't think that a single dot can indicate a line while Michael and I do. Patrick doesn't think someone can use the Titleist logo to align the ball (and hasn't seen it in 50 years of competing) and then 2 people come out and say they've done it for years? Even if you place a ball so that it appears randomly placed (say, with the trademark at a 45 degree angle from the line of the putt), who's to say that if a player practices night and day using that same orientation, that soon that orientation won't begin to indicate the line of putting for him?

Again, I don't use a cheater line or any other mark when I putt, so I don't have a personal stake in this, and yes, I think that your argument has a lot of merit and in an ideal world would carry the day (maybe some day it will). But I think the arguments that many of us have brought up on this thread illustrate that enforcing a "cheater line Rule" would be more difficult than you think.

So the argument is:

1.  there's no difference between the cheater line and a trademark and since the trademark is (wrongly) decided to be legal, so the cheater line should be too..

2. even if you banned both use of the trademark and the cheater line, people would come up with another scheme to beat the rules, so why even bother?

That's the argument?  C'mon.

No that's not the argument. There is no "should" in my argument. I'm not arguing that the cheater line should be legal (or illegal).

If you ban the USE of all MARKS to indicate a line for putting, there is no issue.  Chris, the only reason people push the envelope with this is because the USGA didn't seal the envelope in the first place!  

The argument is that banning the use of all marks to indicate a line for putting is harder than you think it would be to regulate, in part because there is no crystal-clear guideline for determining if a player has actually used a mark on his golf ball to indicate a line for putting, regardless of whether that was his intent or not.

[Patrick_Mucci]

For a "cheater line" to be cheating, does it not have to infer some unfair benefit in using it?

Under Shiva's rule, if the player uses it to aid with alignment it would be deemed a breach.[/color]

 Is there any evidence (or even experience) that its use actually makes a measurable difference?  

If the PGA Tour Pros are doing it, that's good enough evidence for me.[/color]

I use a line (applied with one of those spinning sweet spot finders, so I'm probably doubly damned) and my putting is mediocre at best.  I find that trying to hit the putt over a (pre-existing) mark on the green is probably just as effective as using the line to align the putt.

Just like plumb bobbing is not for everyone, I'd imagine that the cheater line is more effective for some versus others.[/color]  

I do think that balls aligned with the spun line roll truer.  

But, if the line of the putt is wrong (as mine is more often than not) then the ball just more purely misses the hole.  


To what degree the cheater's line is effective, varies, but, irrespective of its efficiency, I think everyone agrees that it slows down the game.[/color]

[Neil_Crafter]

Shivas and Tom
While I accept that the R&A/USGA are the final arbiters of the rules and decisions, golfers still have to 'read' the rules in order to be able to apply them in the course of a round when a handy official is nowhere to be found. This is the reason I expect why the rules are printed in a handy pocket size booklet that we can all carry in our golf bags, otherwise the only copy of the rules would be in R&A/USGA headquarters and we would all play in the dark. Individual golfers' interpretations during a round are the first line up a chain, then to club officials and upwards to the governing bodies. While one individual's interpretation may not be supported finally by the wisdom of the governing bodies, we all have a right and a need to interpret and 'read' the rules each and every time we play.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Not necessarily.
The issue of a cheater line has only reared its head recently.
It's quite possible that the issue HASN'T come up for discusson yet[/b][/color]

Why is this a recent problem?  

Because golfers only began circling their ball with a continuous line, recently.[/color]

I'm thirty, have been playing golf for 25 years and have always putted using a "cheater" line.

Back in the day I would draw a line over the Maxfli and use that.  In fact, that was the way I was taught.

There's no substantive difference between using the label or a line drawn over it.  That line is too short to be efficient.[/color]

This issue has been around since the last cicada cycle.  I think the USGA's silence on the issue for at least the last two decades indicates where it is coming from.

No it hasn't, it's only been around since golfers placed a continous line around the circumference of the ball.[/color]

I'll step back from my computer now and duck....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris Brauner said:

"The positions I do have related to this issue are:
(i) the cheater line is not against the rules as currently written, and so anyone doing it is not cheating."

Patrick Mucci responded:

"That's not true.
8-2 b is clearly open to interpretation due to the current language, which is ambiguous.
"A MARK must NOT be placed ANYWHERE to INDICATE a LINE FOR PUTTING"."

Patrick:

That response by you is what fundamentally amazes me about most of this thread and particularly two of the primary contributors, you and Shivas.

The entire basis of the Rules of Golf is to be able to render a final opinion on any situation or rules question pertinent to a competition. There are distinct mechanisms and procedures for this contained within the Rules of Golf and particularly in the Rule (33) on "The Committee", and its related language in The Appendix. The entire purpose is to be able to render an interpretation so that something will not be constantly and continuously argued with no resolution. This is a most important element and purpose of the Rules of Golf and despite playing golf and competitive golf for years it's something that has apparently totally escaped you and Shivas.

TEPaul,

STOP THE B.S.

There is nothing currently written in the rules of golf or in the Decisions of golf that clarifies the language and the interpretation.

Refering to "A" committee is completely bogus, because, as you know, one committee can rule one way while another committee rules another.

The issue needs to be clarified, not at the committee level, but at the Rules and Decisions level.[/color]

Chris Brauner who is clearly an experienced competitor seems to be aware of it and to understand it.

The USGA has a permanent Rules Committee and they even have someone at the Rules desk to answer and interpret the Rules of Golf in real situations if need be at any time.

I'll repeat.  Nowhere, in the Rules or the Decisions has the USGA clarified the language of 8-2 b.[/color]

Their opinion and interpretation is not just some other interpretation, it is in fact the "official" interpretation of the Rules of Golf and within the mechanism of their procedure it is also the final opinion of Rules situations.

The USGA has NEVER offered an official interpretation, neither in the Rules or in the Decisions.[/color]

That official interpretation on this subject of whether a line on a golf ball used for the purposes of indicating a line of putt has been rendered and that official interpretation is that this practice at this time is not a violation of Rule 8-2b.

Show us where this written interpretation appears in the Rules of Golf or in the Decisions,  the only two documents that carry authority when it comes to the Rules of golf.[/color]

Even the official reason and rationale has been given.

The fact that neither you nor Shivas can seem to understand this is a classic example of both how and why you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the R&A/USGA Rules of Golf.


We are quite capable of reading 8-2 b.
The language remains ambiguous and needs to be clarified.[/color]

This is not open to your interpretation at this time because the USGA's interpretation which is the official interpretation has been rendered. If you don't like their interpretation an appeal and perhaps a written proposal to them to promote your interpretation and to request that they officially adopt your interpretation is always open to you or anyone else.


The USGA has NEVER offered an official interpretation in the Rules of Golf or in the Decisions of Golf, the only two documents that govern the rules of golf.[/color]

Whether or not you prevail in that proposal to change a Rule of Golf or an interpretation is another matter. But until that time and that occurence their interpretation is official and yours is not.

The USGA has NEVER offered an official interpretation in the Rules of Golf or in the Decisions book,  Absent any official interpretation, 8-2 b remains ambiguous and open to interpretation.[/color]

Using a mark on a golf ball to indicate the line for putting is not a violation of Rule 8-2b. It is no longer open to interpretation in an official sense.

Can you show me where it says that in either the Rules of Golf or the Decisions book ?[/color]

That practice now used is not cheating in the context of the R&A/USGA Rules of Golf. That is their official interpretation on this subject.

Where can Shivas and I find the official interpretation in the Rules of Golf or in the Decisions book ?[/color]

And if you don't like that or don't agree with it then make a formal appeal and Rules change proposal to the USGA or start your own Rules of Golf.

How can you agree or disagree with an ambiguous rule that hasn't been officially interpreted in the Rules of Golf or in the Decisions book ?

I"d like the USGA to clarify 8-2 b as it's currently written.

Both Shivas, myself and others are hoping that the next joint rules cycle, due in January of 2008, will clarify 8-2 b, AND rule that the cheater line and/or similar markings are prohibited in the interest of preserving the spirit of the game and improving the pace of play.[/color]

This fundamental way of doing things via the Rules of Golf is, my friend, frankly most of the entire idea in which rests that old fashioned "spirit" of the game of golf---eg that no individual golfer tries to assert himself and his individual opinions over others and that the final authority rests within  interpretations by "The Committee" on the Rules of Golf.

That's pure B.S.
Committees are local.
The central authority, the USGA needs to be definitive on this issue by either rewriting 8-2 b, or providing clarification in the Decisions book[/color]

In St Andrews, Scotland, particularly, this fact and concept and spirit as well as this mechanism of "The Committee" is as old as golf rules themselves. And we most certainly do not need to change that now.

I repeat, committees are local, and different committees can rule differently.  The Central authority, the USGA needs to either rewrite 8-2 b, or clarify it in the Decisions book.[/color]

[CHrisB]

Chris, you must subscribe to the old theory that if you tell a [story] often enough, people will start to believe it.

Ha! Nope. But I do wish that were true sometimes.

It would be a PIECE OF CAKE to ban using marks to indicate a line for putting.  Piece of cake.

Really? Given what the USGA has said and all of the counter-arguments presented in this thread, you still think it would be a piece of cake? Wow.

In order to a mark that is placed to indicate a line for putting, it has to be aligned, and aligned WELL.  To align it WELL, the player has to do some work in aligning it.  That's the giveaway.  It'd be obvious who just put down a ball that happened to have a line or other mark on it vs. a guy who consciously aligned it.

So seeing a guy crouching down behind the ball and fidgeting with the way his ball is oriented is the giveaway? Did you know that when I putt I get down behind the ball and fidget with it to make sure that when I putt all I see is white space (i.e. that all marks and trademarks are HIDDEN from view)? It sure would be interesting to have you call me out on a violation and then come over and see that my ball isn't aligned after all.

The giveaway can't be with the player--it has to be with the ball. An official would have to be able to walk up to the ball, look at it, and declare "the marks on this ball indicate a line for putting". And what's the crystal-clear guideline he would use to make his determination?

Anybody who can't see the difference is basically just blind!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shivas,

Here's what's puzzling me.

Why are so many arguing in favor of keeping the Cheater's Line legal ?

What does that tell you about the state of "the spirit of the game" ?

[CHrisB]

What, precisely, has the USGA said?

I've heard a lot of paraphrasing, but nothing from the USGA (other than "it would be unadviseable to try to regulate markings on the ball", which is not a position, but rather an exercise in question-begging), so some quotes would be nice...

Chris, I've already addressed white space....BTW.

For the umpteenth time, when you're setting white space, your eyes are not looking back and forth, back and forth and back and forth at the line....like I said, it's OBVIOUS.

I agree that an official clarification by the USGA and their reasoning behind that clarification would be nice to see.

So the crystal-clear guideline for determining whether a player uses the marks on his ball to indicate a line for putting is if he gets behind his ball and fidgets with the ball with his eyes looking back and forth at the line?

Bear with me here Shivas, but I just think you'll run in to problems if you limit the guideline to player mannerisms. For example, if you banned them from aligning the ball from behind, it wouldn't long before you see players still crouching behind the ball, picking an intermediate spot along the line, walking to the address position and placing their ball so that their ID mark lines up with that intermediate spot.

So then what? Ban that process also? And then repeat, repeat, repeat as players come up with new ways of doing the same thing?

To enforce a ban using marks to indicate a line for putting, there will have to be a guideline so that an official looking at the ball can determine whether the marks on it indicate a line for putting or not.

If those who want the cheater line banned can come up with such a guideline, then they improve their chances of convincing the USGA to attempt to enforce a rule change. But that's certainly easier said that done.

[JR Potts]

Not necessarily.
The issue of a cheater line has only reared its head recently.
It's quite possible that the issue HASN'T come up for discusson yet[/b][/color]

Why is this a recent problem?  

Because golfers only began circling their ball with a continuous line, recently.[/color]

I'm thirty, have been playing golf for 25 years and have always putted using a "cheater" line.

Back in the day I would draw a line over the Maxfli and use that.  In fact, that was the way I was taught.

There's no substantive difference between using the label or a line drawn over it.  That line is too short to be efficient.[/color]

This issue has been around since the last cicada cycle.  I think the USGA's silence on the issue for at least the last two decades indicates where it is coming from.

No it hasn't, it's only been around since golfers placed a continous line around the circumference of the ball.[/color]

I'll step back from my computer now and duck....

Now I'm totally confused about your position.

Is it your position that a cheater line must be drawn around the full circumference of the ball in a continuous line to be a cheater line?

It appears that is what you are supporting.  If so, then the line I draw over the Titleist provided line is not a cheater line at all as it does not traverse over the full circumference of the line.  In fact, the seam is more of a cheater line than anything I draw on it.

And you note, "that line is too short to be efficient."  Are we talking about putting efficiency?  I thought we were worried about the spirit of the game and pace of play?  Efficiency?

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