News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


THuckaby2

Re:New Golfweek Rankings
« Reply #375 on: March 07, 2005, 11:05:15 AM »
Mr. Cirba remains wise, his summation is 100% correct, his reasons remain pure.

He also remains one of my life idols.

 ;D ;D

TH
« Last Edit: March 07, 2005, 11:05:41 AM by Tom Huckaby »

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New Golfweek Rankings
« Reply #376 on: March 07, 2005, 11:08:29 AM »


As an eastcoaster who has played RC 5-6 times (once a chance putting green meeting with Lynn and David M) It does play easier than  many of the courses in my area.  So what?  What is so horrible about a golfer shooting ~70 after "overpowering" the course?  

Clearly, it deserves to be in the top 100.  I am not a rater on a fun scale itdeserves to be even higher.

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New Golfweek Rankings
« Reply #377 on: March 07, 2005, 11:08:35 AM »
4. I was egged on by some of the perverts in here.

I resemble that remark!

Mike_Cirba

Re:New Golfweek Rankings
« Reply #378 on: March 07, 2005, 11:11:29 AM »
4. I was egged on by some of the perverts in here.

I resemble that remark!

Scott,

More accurately, I should have said;

4. I was egged on by some of the other perverts in here.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2005, 11:12:04 AM by Mike_Cirba »

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New Golfweek Rankings
« Reply #379 on: March 07, 2005, 11:15:47 AM »
reminds me of a line from M*A*S*H...somebody called Hawkeye a pervert, and Trapper John said "Don't call him that...he's never at any of the meetings"
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

JohnV

Re:New Golfweek Rankings
« Reply #380 on: March 07, 2005, 12:15:31 PM »
Reminds me of Dr. Strangelove and Col. Bat Guano asking Group Captain Mandrake if he is "some kind of deviated prevert" (sic) ;)

Dr. Strangelove and M*A*S*H would be 1 and 2 in the greatest anti-war satires of all time.

DMoriarty

Re:New Golfweek Rankings
« Reply #381 on: March 07, 2005, 01:24:18 PM »
David W:

I don’t care what you think or RC or about Shady Canyon, Cascata, Southern Highlands, or any other of your high-end, ‘classy' favorites.  I cannot imagine how people like you are at all good for any rating system, but that is not my call.  

Likewise, I don’t give a damn if you want to exaggerate your golfing prowess--  this week you say you were even or one under at RC; a while back weren’t you saying you were (-2) after missing putts on the last couple of holes?   Whatever works for you.    But I take offense when you say or imply that I am a liar.   Whatever else I may be, I do try to be honest, even if sometimes brutally so.    

Here, again, is what you said above:
Quote
RC is too easily overpowered.  I seem to remember that same rater you refer to shooting even or 1-under, driving 2 par 4's (1 with a 3-wood), hitting 3 par fives in 2 and making one eagle and five birdies total - as a 5-handicap.  He also rendered most of the strategy irrelevant because every second shot was with a wedge.

Perhaps because of all the pre-round discussion, I remember your round better than most my own.  I wouldn’t go down this route if I wasn’t confident that my memory is true.  And before you continue to call me a liar, let me remind you that we did not play as a twosome that day. It was a very enjoyable day and I am sorry that this is how it is being relived, but I don’t appreciate you bolstering your opinion through puffery, and I take offense when you call me a liar.  Your round . . .  

-- You did not shoot  even par (72) or (-1.)   You shot two or three over par,  a 74 or 75.  On the 18th tee, you noted that you were (+1) and that you needed a birdie to shoot even par.  I do not recall whether you  bogeyed the 18th hole or  doubled it, but you did not par it and you certainly did not birdie it.  

--  You did not “drive two par 4’s.”   You definitely could have been on the green with a three wood on the easily reachable No. 3.   But upon seeing No. 7 (a hole you had previously said was easily drivable) you agreed that you had likely been playing an up tee and that it was not drivable at all.   On the other short Par 4, the much  discussed  No. 12, your drive was long enough to reach the green, but  you were over near the bread-loaf mound, well right of the green and apron--   You did hit a terrific second shot of 75+ yards, landing on the upper portion near the pin and holding the green (a rarity for balls landing up there.)   Unless you meant to say you had the distance but hit it about 60-70 yards right of the  edge of the green,  I am afraid your memory has failed you.

--    As for the hitting “three par 5’s in two” you will have to refresh my memory.   I couldn’t forget your terrific eagle on No. 9-- a blasted three wood from the right side of the fairway from around 270 yds out, bounding up and stopping just a  foot or so onto the right front peninsula portion of the green, then a nice uphill putt.   But I also recall that you  hit a 4 iron at the reachable first hole but bounced over the green and apron into the rough, as high fades are wont to do from the right side of the fairway.  You chipped on and  two putted for your par.   I don’t doubt you hit No. 13-- it was definitely reachable for longer hitters.   But while I have heard tales, I don’t think I have ever witnessed anyone reach No. 10 in two-- I don’t doubt it is very possible, but you didn’t do it.  

--  While you did make some birdies, I don’t recall five, and I would if you did.  

--  Every second shot with a wedge?   You are dreaming.  Sure on the three short Par 4’s and the Par 5’s,and the short 8th.  But a wedge on every other hole?    Let’s see, setting the above aside, that leaves the other par threes (not wedge holes) and  No. 2 (457),  No.11 (was 430, now 452), No. 14 (485), No. 16 (479), and No. 18 (456).   You must have borrowed Matt Ward’s wedge.  

Why you feel the need to exaggerate your already impressive accomplishment is beyond me.  But in the future try to do so in a way that doesn’t impugn my integrity as well as yours.  

. . .  

As for Shady Canyon, you most certainly did decide that it was in a different class than Rustic before you played Shady Canyon.   In fact this was our topic of conversation for most of the drive from the Airport to Rustic.  You told me that this was a flaw in the system that kept courses like Rustic from getting recognized--  they couldn’t be expected to compete against courses like Shady Canyon, which were high end projects.    I wouldn’t doubt that you have had similar but general conversations with others-- that the very nature of the  low end or middle end publics ensures that they cannot compete with the high-end courses;  that the high end courses are simply in a different “class.”   How can you deny this given that we both know that you said it and believe it?

________________________________

Brad,

Thank you again for your explanations.  

As for the Californians who think Rustic is ranked way too high, send them to Shady Canyon or have them go play some of the other higher end Southern California courses which pollute the other lists.  Or better yet have them contact David W, who I am sure can come up with a long list of higher class courses, whether David has played them or not.  

I too would rather we discussed the courses.  But the ratings have influence, so while it doesn't make your life any easier, they should be scrutinized.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2005, 01:28:19 PM by DMoriarty »

Thomas_Brown

Re:New Golfweek Rankings
« Reply #382 on: March 07, 2005, 02:58:41 PM »
I can't help myself - I'm curious on the variance statistic on the Top 100 courses.  Given the diversity of opinions, you'd think the variance on Rustic Canyon would be higher than others.  My guess for Rustic is 0.65 for the std. dev.

Brad - I'm not asking for it - the inner geek can't help but ask for the distribution on everything.

By the way - I like Rustic.
I can't wait to see some of the post flood revisions.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New Golfweek Rankings
« Reply #383 on: March 07, 2005, 03:11:24 PM »
Tom Brown, interesting idea, something I've thought about but not as clearly as you now make clear. In fact, I'm so inspired I think it would make a great idea for my next book:

"Deviance By Design:" a statistical profile of the most controversial and the most consensually-oriented golf course architects, entirely based upon rigorous - and joyless - mathematical modeling, designed to determine who are the least objectionable architects and who are the most controversial.

We can then do yet another list, of every golf course in America, on the basis of standard deviation, so that we have the most objectionable and the least objectionable, and we can correlate this to pro forma business modeling (5-10 year returns on investment), green fees, maintenance budgets, and the all-important "accessory-factor" whereby we correlate the $ impact of each designer's "objectionability quotient" with real estate values and home lot prices.

Thomas_Brown

Re:New Golfweek Rankings
« Reply #384 on: March 07, 2005, 03:26:12 PM »
Brad - If you were still in academia, I'd require you to make me 2nd author.  ;)

wsmorrison

Re:New Golfweek Rankings
« Reply #385 on: March 07, 2005, 03:31:50 PM »
Brad,

Would you consider using only William Flynn's name for the courses attributed to Toomey and Flynn?  Flynn was soley responsible for designs.  Toomey handled the engineering and business matters.

While you're at it, how about dropping Hood as the architect at Kittansett?  Well, at the very least Flynn and Hood; though it is pretty clear it was Flynn's routing and design.  Hood did have the shekels though.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2005, 03:34:18 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New Golfweek Rankings
« Reply #386 on: March 07, 2005, 03:33:19 PM »
Wow, that's a simple request. I'll await your book before deciding.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2005, 03:34:40 PM by Brad Klein »

wsmorrison

Re:New Golfweek Rankings
« Reply #387 on: March 07, 2005, 03:35:41 PM »
In that case, you'll get an advance copy!
« Last Edit: March 07, 2005, 03:39:04 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Pete Buczkowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New Golfweek Rankings
« Reply #388 on: March 07, 2005, 05:38:04 PM »
Tom Brown, interesting idea, something I've thought about but not as clearly as you now make clear. In fact, I'm so inspired I think it would make a great idea for my next book:

"Deviance By Design:" a statistical profile of the most controversial and the most consensually-oriented golf course architects, entirely based upon rigorous - and joyless - mathematical modeling, designed to determine who are the least objectionable architects and who are the most controversial.

We can then do yet another list, of every golf course in America, on the basis of standard deviation, so that we have the most objectionable and the least objectionable, and we can correlate this to pro forma business modeling (5-10 year returns on investment), green fees, maintenance budgets, and the all-important "accessory-factor" whereby we correlate the $ impact of each designer's "objectionability quotient" with real estate values and home lot prices.

Brad,

I'm sure you can do better than this.  You could write a book about "Courses that Polarize": Tobacco Road, Shadow Creek, Rustic Canyon, PGA West, Ballybunion Cashen, etc - giving both sides of the opinion spectrum and then offering your own opinion.  Now who wouldn't want to read that book?

Pete

DMoriarty

Re:New Golfweek Rankings
« Reply #389 on: March 07, 2005, 05:58:41 PM »
Brad, I'd be very curious about the deviations as well.   In fact Jonathan and I have had at least one discussion on the topic and it may even have come up on the board.  

In my conversations with Jonathan, I hypothesized that a group of courses would have surprisingly tight variances, and predicted that these courses would generally be upscale, well groomed, with no glaring flaws, attractive, with balanced holes and by a name architect.   I would think that most raters would really enjoy a course like this, and probably not find much fault in it, even if they were not blown away.  If these underwhelmed but impressed raters all gave the course 6.5’s or 7’s (in equal amounts) then this course comes in with a rating of 6.75, tying Cascata at Number 67, modern.  

In contrast, the more controversial, different, and/or groundbreaking courses would likely receive more polarized ratings, with some higher scores by those that were blown away, and some lower scores by those who just didn’t get it or like it.   I’d guess most of these wouldn’t make the list, as I don’t think it would take too lower scores to torpedo any course’s chances.   The few that did probably need pretty strong support at top, and perhaps even an active lobby to at least convince fellow raters not to torpedo the course.  

Anyway, that is the hypothesis.   The variances could certainly prove it false, but that’s the way it goes with hypotheses.

Personally, I’d much rather play a course that many loved and many hated, as opposed to a course where everyone agreed that it was pretty good.  

Thomas_Brown

Re:New Golfweek Rankings
« Reply #390 on: March 07, 2005, 06:57:06 PM »
Dave - I half expected some sort of chastise from you or Tommy on my guess on 0.65 for the RC std. dev.

I absolutely concur on the tight variances for the well manicured theory.

On the outside of it, it should not be that hard to add the variance feature to Brad's Excel reporting engine.  I'd hate to volunteer and break the whole thing, though.  If you gave me a year to finish...

Of course, we would still have to account for the fat tails problem Dave & Tommy create w/ their 10 rating on RC, though.   :)

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New Golfweek Rankings
« Reply #391 on: March 07, 2005, 07:42:55 PM »
DaveM,

You missed my point completely (Or did not care) in your urge to write yours - not surprising given how you love miss lawyerly arguing.  I was not trying to debate your recollection of the round vs. mine.  I think 5 birdies, you think 4 or less.  I thought 1-under, you thought 1-over.  I do remember the comment on 18 (Which I par'd to shoot either 72 or 73 – I think it was birdie to break par).  My point was big deal.  

Where I said you flat out made it up was your telling me my opinion that RC could not be better than SC.  In general terms courses with more money have more options.  Is this even debatable?  In specific terms, each course is judged on its own merits.  One of the five highest ratings I have ever given a modern course is The Golf Club.  It is the antithesis of Shady or Shadow but it is a genius golf course.  For you to print my opinions as mine (And make them up as you go) is exactly what you did and it is below you.  Obviously gracious winner is not in your vocabulary and it is not enough that GW validated your opinion on RC.  You will continue to make it your mission to bash all who disagree with you.  That is a shame and IMO below you but your call.
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

DMoriarty

Re:New Golfweek Rankings
« Reply #392 on: March 08, 2005, 01:05:06 AM »
David Wigler.  

The reason that your faulty recollection matters is that you base your opinion on your fallacious belief that you easily overpowered the course.   And it is not as simple as '+1 vs. -1.'  You were +2 or +3, yet in the past you've bragged that you barely missed shooting -3.  

But you are correct that your score isnt the point.  Or at least it shouldn't be.  Yet it is important because you have made it so.   You base your opinion on your playing experience, yet all that is left of your playing experience is a megalomaniacal hallucination. You remember driving greens you didnt drive, you remember hitting par 5s in two when you didnt, you remember hitting wedge approaches on five long par 4s when you didnt.   At one point you even remembered flirting with the 60's!  

This all goes to show you that raters ought to think twice before they base their rating on their own game.   This is especially true when the rater is delusional.  

As for your opinion of Shady Canyon, you and I both know that you told me that in your opinion a course like Rustic just can't compete with a course like Shady Canyon.  No need to make anything up and no need for convoluted interpretation, that is what you said.

So now you are apparently saying that while you believe this generally, you judge each course individually based on each course's own merits?   Okay, I'll accept that this is what you meant when you said the above.  It gives you absolutely no basis calling me a liar, but I'll accept that you generally group golf courses by "class," yet still try to look at each course individually.

That you do not see this as a potential problem with regard to your rating is astounding-- as astounding now as it was when you first made your comment about Rustic v. Shady.  

You say:
"In general terms courses with more money have more options.  Is this even debatable?"

Incredible.  I am not even sure what else to say, except that yes, it is debatable.  


. . ..
Now that Wigs has seen all it takes is making a few bombs and anybody can break 70...he is skipping tough driving courses.

As you well know, I am one of the only 5-handicaps on the planet who has still never broke 70. Last time at RC I had 1 eagle, 4 birides and missed a makeable putt on 17 and a 30 footer on 18 to shoot 70 on the number (From the tips with GCA witnesses). Oh well, one of these days I will hit the magical 69 and be within 1 shot of Michele Wie in a PGA event.

Jeez, David, you might as well contact the pro shop and inform them that you broke the fantasy round course record.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2005, 01:07:40 AM by DMoriarty »

TEPaul

Re:New Golfweek Rankings
« Reply #393 on: March 08, 2005, 06:38:30 AM »
David Moriarty said of Wigs at Rustic;

"But you are correct that your score isnt the point.  Or at least it shouldn't be.  Yet it is important because you have made it so.  You base your opinion on your playing experience, yet all that is left of your playing experience is a megalomaniacal hallucination. You remember driving greens you didnt drive, you remember hitting par 5s in two when you didnt, you remember hitting wedge approaches on five long par 4s when you didnt.  At one point you even remembered flirting with the 60's!"

Jeeezus, were those two guys actually playing the same course on the same day together?? '....your playing experience is a megalomaniac hallucination.' Wow, that's cold!!

That reminds me of the opposite of a playing experience some young limber-back had years ago during one qualifying round for the US Amateur while playing with Lou Rossanova (the mob or teamsters backed hustler supreme).

Apparently Lou wanted to just see what was going on out in the normal world of top-flight amateur golf so he entered the US Am qualifier but only ended up playing one round of the 36 hole qualifer.

In that round Lou shot a 66 and when the round was over his marker, the young limber-back said; "Great round of 66 Lou!" And Lou said to the young limber-back; "Kid it was a 75!" The kid said: "But Lou I watched every shot you hit, you were great, it was a 66!" And Lou said; "Kid, did you hear what I said? It was a 75!"    ;)

 

ForkaB

Re:New Golfweek Rankings
« Reply #394 on: March 08, 2005, 06:55:30 AM »
Remember the sequel to that story, Tom?

Limberback's game went downhill from there on and when a few years later someone asked him why, he said:

"Blame it on the Rossanova...."

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New Golfweek Rankings
« Reply #395 on: March 08, 2005, 12:09:46 PM »
Rich,

You are the wit of the world.  Of course, I've been sick for 10 days now and all the drugs might be making a bit delirious.  Anyways, thanks for the levity during my down time.  And no, Lou was not the uncle I was named for.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2005, 12:10:52 PM by Lou_Duran »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New Golfweek Rankings
« Reply #396 on: March 08, 2005, 12:27:39 PM »
After reading through this thread and the wacko exchange on playing Rustic Canyon, I now see better than ever why defense attorneys are reluctant to have their clients take the stand. There's no telling what they'll on their own behalf. Even when they're telling the truth they can do their cause serious harm.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2005, 02:45:56 PM by Brad Klein »

ForkaB

Re:New Golfweek Rankings
« Reply #397 on: March 08, 2005, 12:29:40 PM »
Your welcome, Lou.  For a while I thought I was the only one admitting to be old enough to understand that pun!

Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:New Golfweek Rankings
« Reply #398 on: March 08, 2005, 01:49:14 PM »
Gents:



Oakmont keeps players on their toes -- just look at the wide array of champions that have won on its turf. With the lone exception of Sam Parks -- a quality listing indeed.

Matt -  

Please don't belittle Sam Parks.  He is the only person on the planet to have ever won a U.S. Open and been a member of a World Series winning baseball team (NYY).

Are you going to pick on Tony Manero next???

;D

JWK

Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:New Golfweek Rankings
« Reply #399 on: March 08, 2005, 02:21:07 PM »
Mike,

To what do you attribute the Rulewich change?  Maintenance?  It would seem to me that a flat floor of sand would be easier for the better players and harder for average guy.  I have no doubt that the new bunkers aren't as aesthetically pleasing, but do they cheapen the way the hole plays?

I also can't see the ledging you describe except to the right of the steps.  But rather than introducing fairness, wouldn't it not add an element of chance and quirk (that it may get hung-up in a variety of lies as opposed to being repelled back into a flat bunker)?  Perhaps the ledging is also a compromise to ease of maintenance.

BTW, does Yale have a large enough student body to support a university course?  Or does it rely on the community and outside play to make the numbers work?  I am just wondering if the course would do better as a private club, and whether a group of well-heeled, concerned alumni couldn't build a student course and exchange it for the Raynor gem.  

Lou,

I'm not a member at Yale and I don't know their reasons although I've heard knowledgeable folks cite ease of maintenance and...get this...making the course play "easier" as the reasons for their changes.  Evidently, they think it would be too difficult for the modern golfer if it was maintained as it was in Seth's 1928 day.  Sheesh...

As far as maintenance practices, the floor of the bunker used to be right at the bottom of a steeper (not ledged) grassy wall.  At 25 feet below green surface, I'm not sure this was easier for any level of golfer.

Are they into grade inflation these days as well.

In order to land in the bunkers at #2, you have to mis hit the iron pretty fat.  Otherwise you end up in the high grass.

JWK