In this case, I think Lloyd presents a very slight tangent, yet an interesting one close enough to the original subject that merits inclusion and response. Of course there are some threads that go off on related tangents can result in off topic areas that should be discouraged on the initial thread or encouraged on another thread. The ones that go off on unrelated tangents (and I've been guilty of this) should be discouraged. Who determines what should be discouraged? The group, by its response.
"Wayno,
Why are you so opposed to flat bottomed bunkers when they present more of a challenge than bunkers sloped up toward the green?"
I thought I explained myself pretty well on this subject. But here goes:
Because they look unnatural and rather UGLY. They have predictable and uniform results, and on the whole present much less of a challenge than bunkers with an undulated floor and a variety of slopes, including downslopes and sideslopes which usually result in a poorer shot than a near miss resulting on an upslope. I like that penalty model better than the flat bunker where all shots have an equal result, except the near miss that hits the steep grassy bank and comes to rest at the base of a steep slope or depending upon the grass and maintenance, staying on the steep grassy slope. both poor results for a slightly marginal shot.
I wouldn't just consider the upslope towards the green as you seem to do. Yet, you are an exceptionally good golfer and may not consider that upslopes are not easy for everyone. The same upslope stance that benefits the better golfer is uneasy for the typical golfer, who often hits it fat or tries to scoop it and hits it short. They would much rather have a flat lie, even with a deeper bunker. With today's balls, 60 and 64* wedges and square grooves, that shot isn't nearly as difficult from a perfectly unnatural flat lie. Put golfers in a awkward stance, even uphill and the majority of golfers have difficulties. Remember, that upslopes tend to have variations in the amount of sand adding to the difficulty. When there is too much sand, it is usually too hard for the average player.
Variability, iffiness and luck--both good and bad, should be introduced and not discouraged in design. The boring geometric look of straight lines, perfectly flat bunker floors and predictable recovery shots in Raynor and Banks systematic bunker designs are nothing more than satisfactory.
Pat,
I get no kick from Raynor bunkers
Mere laser-flat floor doesn't thrill me at all
So tell me why should it be true
But I still get a kick out of you
