[Sean_A]

"Mr. Colt has been engaged in golf course construction for seven years in England.


Christian Science Monitor, 23 April 1914, pg 18

Interesting. Same year he met MacKenzie?  There's a lot we dont know.

Tony

I agree!  For a long time now I have suspected that Colt & Dr Mac are the real two major forces in bringing about the "heathlands revolution" with all the other often mentioned archies merely students - good ones, but students of Colt & Dr Mac just the same.  I also suspect that there is more to be discovered about Colt that will boost his reputation even higher.  Now, who's gonna write the book?

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

Tom you need to do some digging.


Hawtree in Colt and Co says “1913 in particular was clearly overloaded. Bearing in mind that in Britain al least, his activities in connection with each new course probably extended over two years before the opening date and considering that construction would have largely been concentrated within the summer months, Colt was pushing himself very hard.”
Note he says this but has Colt’s courses/trips across the Ocean as 1912 and 1914. This was clearly a very busy year.

Some suggestions of where else he was working in this period.

Sunnigdale have their records and minutes of committee meetings etc and are likely to have a record of their dealings with colt in 1913. However in March his role finally changed to “advisor for Green matters only at a salary of £100pa, being relieved of al other responsibility.”  Tom Birkett of this group might approach the club for you or write to John Whitfield who wrote the Club History quoted above.

Betchworth Park GC opened in September 1913, although the website doesn’t say if he was in attendance then.  There is a club history.   Brent Hutto played there a couple of years ago and may know more.

Camberley Heath there is an article in the Evening Standard by B Darwin, May 1913 the year of its opening.

Copt Heath opened 1913
Blackmoor 1913

Find a Spanish speaking person to help you with http://www.realclubpuertadehierro.com/
Interesting if he really did find time to travel to Spain in the same year.  Hawtree says he worked on it with an opening in 1913

Probably not worth troubling a Frenchie about http://www.pariscountryclub.com/htm/visiteduclub/golf.asp
Paris in the same year? Wow

A Mr Richard Farnsworth Goodale may be able to help you with info about his time working on the Eden Course. His ‘Experience’ book states that in 1913 an Act of Parliament cleared the way for a fourth course and it opened the next year.

Beaconsfield GC opened in 1914. Their website isn’t working.

Happy Hunting.


EDIT

Would you believe it?  Sean has a current thread going that points out Colt was also working on Burnham and Berrow in 1913.
http://www.burnhamandberrowgolfclub.co.uk/about_us.php

[Mark Bourgeois]

Thanks Tony!

Interesting considering apparently he came in for criticism over his design of the Eden...

Mark

[Mark Bourgeois]

Repeating my hope for a Colt time line...

[TEPaul]

"For a long time now I have suspected that Colt & Dr Mac are the real two major forces in bringing about the "heathlands revolution" with all the other often mentioned archies merely students - good ones, but students of Colt & Dr Mac just the same."

From what I've heard about Herbert Fowler I don't think that could be said about him. Merely a student of Colt and Mackenzie? What gives you that idea? He certainly never worked with them or for them and he did some pretty special courses.

[Bradley Anderson]

Re: Colts 1913 itinerary:

Exerpts from an Old Elm Club board of governers report, dated October 17, 1914

"In January 1913, Old Elm Club was organized and plans for commencing construction of the course as early in the spring as the weather would permit were made. Donald Ross was engaged to lay out the course, and later, H.S. Colt, the famous English golf architect, who was in this country, was secured, and Old Elm represents the best ideas and skill of the two recognized experts in this work."

"Our original purchase of land comprised 140 acres. In April 1913, after spending many days trying to adapt the 140 acres to the kind of golf course we wanted, Messrs. Colt and Ross recommended the purchase of twenty acres additional land."

"Messrs. Ross and Colt devoted two days to an effort to locate this clubhouse farther back in the grounds without interfering with the golf course, but the shape of the land is such that this could not be accomplished, and all hands agreed, after many conferences, that the knoll upon which the clubhouse is now located was the only place in which it could be consructed without detriment to the golf course."

No great revelations here but it is of some interest to note that Colt does not seem to have been called to America necessarily to do Old Elm, but rather he was brought into the process that had already begun with Ross, when it was learned that he was in America.

In either case, even with all of the days that are accounted for in this document, his work at Old Elm could have been completed before May of 1913.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Colt and Ross on-site working together for two days, at Old Elm! Wow. It would have been fun to tag along, don't you think?

[TEPaul]

Sean:

It seems to me that the heathland architects of that early time did not look upon Fowler as "secondary" and judging from some contemporaneous newspaper articles which have been found again recently it doesn't seem like those who were creating the important Pine Valley thought of him as secondary insofar as it appears he was the one whose architecture they constantly discussed and analyzed the plans and drawings of.

I don't have any wish to minimize the importance of Colt or Mackenzie later but it seems too many are trying to almost force the opinion that he was definitely first amongst the heathland architects of that time. I just don't know if that's an accurate reading of the significant heathland era and architects. I also think the importance of Willie Park Jr's work there and elsewhere should not be minimized.

[Mike_Cirba]

Sean:

It seems to me that the heathland architects of that early time did not look upon Fowler as "secondary" and judging from some contemporaneous newspaper articles which have been found again recently it doesn't seem like those who were creating the important Pine Valley thought of him as secondary insofar as it appears he was the one whose architecture they constantly discussed and analyzed the plans and drawings of.

I don't have any wish to minimize the importance of Colt or Mackenzie later but it seems too many are trying to almost force the opinion that he was definitely first amongst the heathland architects of that time. I just don't know if that's an accurate reading of the significant heathland era and architects. I also think the importance of Willie Park Jr's work there and elsewhere should not be minimized.

Tom,

I agree.

I'm as big a HS Colt fan as anyone but I don't see how giving him accellerated post-facto credit ahead of someone like Park provides an accurate historical understanding.

Also, can you elaborate on what Crump, et.al. were studying specifically about Fowler's theories?

Thanks!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

I ask that because of any of the Heathland crew's style that guys like Crump and Wilson seemed to emulate from a "naturalism" standpoint, Fowler would likely be the top contender.

[TEPaul]

"Also, can you elaborate on what Crump, et.al. were studying specifically about Fowler's theories?"

Mike:

No I can't. The first I ever heard of the interest in Fowler by Crump and co at Pine Valley was from one of those newspaper articles that Joe Bausch found the other day.

Before that I'd never seen anything at all that mentioned Fowler or an interest in him at Pine Valley. There's nothing at the club I've ever seen that mentions Fowler but I don't know that I've seen everything at the club and even if I had and Fowler is not mentioned I don't believe it means much, particularly in light of that article Joe found.

But I take information like that from an old newspaper account very seriously indeed as it seems to me the one reporting that type of information and particularly the detailed manner of that information must have known those men at Pine Valley pretty well. It sounds like he was right there with them from that account the way he described it. And furthermore, it occurs to me that if a reporter like that wrote something like that back then and it had no basis in truth that he would definitely hear from those he was reporting about asking him what in the hell he was writing that for if it had no basis in fact. There's at least one magazine report on information coming from Pine Valley that was wrong and the president of the club asked the magazine to print a retraction which they did.

[TEPaul]

Sean:

It's not exactly the heathlands "look" that I'm talking about. I'm talking about those men who were generally classified as the "heathlands" architects because that's generally where they came from when they began to work. Many of them went onto vastly different types of sites and so their inventories did not always come close to a heathland look but it was that they were the first and the best at developing some real naturalism in man-made architecture whether they worked inland or on coastal land. But the real point is they were the ones who first developed really good man-made architecture inland before hardly anyone else in the world had done that inland which also included some pre-existing parkland settings.

[Mark Bourgeois]

A common thread for all three designers is Alwoodley.  Not only was Colt called to have a look, so was Fowler.  1907 is the pivot point.

Heathland is an interesting "thematic" breakpoint to consider.  Such ground was "sour" and growing turf on it, nevermind building a course, apparently was a major agronomic problem.  That both heathland and linksland consisted of soil essentially "unimprovable" for purposes of farm or pasture surely must be more than a coincidence: here was land available for frivolous purposes.

Solving the agronomic problem enabled golf to move onto the heath, where "problems" of play / shots similar to linksland could at last be replicated: the ground game.

Interestingly, the solution required both time and money, two factors making such courses expensive.  Thus, not only was a technical solution required, so was wealth, and concentrated wealth at that -- unlikely heathland courses would draw a country membership.

The Industrial Revolution supplied the wealth and the concentration, in the cities of the North such as Leeds as well as London in the South.

The proximity of links-like land to concentrated wealth must have at last provided the funds necessary for the agronomic advances to actually go into the ground.

How's that sound?  Totally made-up?

Mark

PS One way to get at any influence Fowler might have had, albeit indirectly, is to consider what the members would have read by him.  Does anything he wrote indicate a meeting of minds?  Sorry I am sure I am way behind on understanding -- I find 21-page threads too daunting even for gentle walks into their foothills, much less serious considerations of summiting...

[Sean_A]

Sean:

It's not exactly the heathlands "look" that I'm talking about. I'm talking about those men who were generally classified as the "heathlands" architects because that's generally where they came from when they began to work. Many of them went onto vastly different types of sites and so their inventories did not always come close to a heathland look but it was that they were the first and the best at developing some real naturalism in man-made architecture whether they worked inland or on coastal land. But the real point is they were the ones who first developed really good man-made architecture inland before hardly anyone else in the world had done that inland which also included some pre-existing parkland settings.

Tom

This is my point.  They all were not equal in developing really good man-made naturalistic architecture in the heathlands - not by a long shot.  The introduction of Alwoodley by Dr Mac must have been a serious eye opener for Fowler and Park.  This time in 1907 is imo the real rocket launcher for classic heathland courses.  The courses which came before were stepping stones to be sure, but again, I think the most important part of that stepping stone is the choice of land and probably the introduction of more varied and interesting strategy.  In terms of the look of naturalism and tying the course to the land (what would BECOME architecture and is still terribly endearing), Alwoodley must have been a light bulb moment.  

Ciao  

[Mark Bourgeois]

1907: It's like the "1905" of physics...

[TEPaul]

"Tom
This is my point.  They all were not equal in developing really good man-made naturalistic architecture in the heathlands - not by a long shot.  The introduction of Alwoodley by Dr Mac must have been a serious eye opener for Fowler and Park.  This time in 1907 is imo the real rocket launcher for classic heathland courses.  The courses which came before were stepping stones to be sure, but again, I think the most important part of that stepping stone is the choice of land and probably the introduction of more varied and interesting strategy.  In terms of the look of naturalism and tying the course to the land (what would BECOME architecture and is still terribly endearing), Alwoodley must have been a light bulb moment."


Sean:

I do not agree with that and I don't think any history of architecture supports that.

Alwoodley was and is a great golf course but I just don't believe it was the first and certainly not the most significant one probably since it wasn't really that close in time to the first in the heathlands to get the attention and that lightbulb effect that the first few courses out of the heathlands created around the world. Maybe that's the way it looks to you today but I don't think it was looked at that way back then simply because it wasn't that close in time to the first of what were considered to be the FIRST great INLAND architecture that came out of that place from those architects. You should not just consider what Alwoodley looks like to you compared to Park Jr's Sunningdale and Huntercombe or even Fowler's first work, you should only consider how different Sunningdale and Huntercombe seemed to those back them compared to anything that'd come before them inland.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Whoa guys...I'm not even sure that Alwoodley was a lightbulb moment in 1907?

What is the evidence to support that statement?

[TEPaul]

"Whoa guys...I'm not even sure that Alwoodley was a lightbulb moment in 1907?
What is the evidence to support that statement?"

MikeC:

That's my point---eg I don't think there is accurate historical  evidence to support that claim or statement. Alwoodley is a great golf course and it's an important one in the evolution of more natural inland architecture that came before it but my point is there were others that were considered to be "lightbulb" moments in inland naturalism that came up to seven years before Alwoodley.

I just can't find any historical evidence yet to deny C&W's contention that Park jr's Sunningdale and Huntercombe was that light-bulb moment for inland architecture.

Again, it doesn't really matter if Park jr's Sunningdale and Huntercombe wasn't as natural looking as Colt's redesign of it. All that really matters is how much different and more natural looking Park jr's Sunningdale and Huntercombe was compared to what came before them inland!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

That's exactly true.

Along any continuum, any deviating point is only measured by how far it contrasts from any preceding point.  

Future points that extend that continuum are accenting only by definition, and not the revolutionary points in and of themselves.

Got that?  

[Peter Pallotta]

A question gents, borrowing a concept from another thread (and hoping it makes sense):

Does all this mean that the earliest architects were 'innocents' and unselfconscious 'naturalists', but that these architects were followed immediately by, let's call them 'formalists', who were then themselves followed by Park Jr at Sunningdale, trying to recapture (albeit in a more self-conscious way) that early innocence and naturalism? And all before 1907?

Thanks
Peter
 

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

The crux of this entire question of naturalism in early architecture, particularly inland architecture in England (the heathlands) or in America, is to ask if there was anything in England inland or in America inland or at all anywhere inland that was more natural looking than Park's inland architecture in the heathlands or Macdonald's NGLA which may've been more natural looking than most of what came before it in America?

I don't think there was anything inland in England or the rest of the world that could compare to Park's inland Sunningdale and Huntercombe for naturalism in architecture inland.

But what could compare or top NGLA for greater naturalism in  architecture in America that preceded NGLA?

I maintain that the only one that could in America was Myopia. Macdonald mentioned as much. He did not call it "naturalism" at Myopia, he merely called it one of the three best courses in America before NGLA.

But the point is Macdonald took his templates from the Scottish linksland where there was some stark artificiality mixed with actual naturalism, and by that I mean actual naturalism in the linksland that was NOT man-made. I don't believe Macdonald looked to the heathlands but I do, at this point, know that Myopia's Herbert Leeds did. Historical fact puts Leeds in the heathlands just before he developed his Myopia, and that potential influence on him of that early Park et al heathland architecture that early is my point about the lightbulb moment that took place in the heathlands around 1900-04.

And my further point is it didn't take some people from America and England very long to notice it and have the huge difference of it catch on compared to what came before it inland.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I agree when golf moved onto the heath it was a real lightbulb moment for golf, and I'm glad Tom Paul to see you not calling it a lightbulb moment for "naturalist" golf, because the efforts of Park and Fowler contained a definite formalism, judging by early pictures.

But honestly, didn't the advance represented by the early heathland courses came down to function, to presenting the same problems and tests for golfers as did linksland courses?

Regarding naturalism, Colt's measure as an architect grew, in part, from his "naturalizing" Sunningdale Old, didn't it?

Fowler's recommendations for changes to Alwoodley appear to have been almost entirely ignored, indicating a certain perspective at the time of his visit.

But then you look at the difference between Delamere Forest (pre Alwoodley) and Beau Desert (post) appears to point to changes in his philosophy, and 1907 (actually I think he visited in 1908) might have been the catalyst.

Then there's the visit by Colt...

Peter -- I don't know if that's the progression, but your phrase "unselfconscious naturalist" interestingly might apply to Colt but not MacKenzie.

Mark

[Sean_A]

"Tom
This is my point.  They all were not equal in developing really good man-made naturalistic architecture in the heathlands - not by a long shot.  The introduction of Alwoodley by Dr Mac must have been a serious eye opener for Fowler and Park.  This time in 1907 is imo the real rocket launcher for classic heathland courses.  The courses which came before were stepping stones to be sure, but again, I think the most important part of that stepping stone is the choice of land and probably the introduction of more varied and interesting strategy.  In terms of the look of naturalism and tying the course to the land (what would BECOME architecture and is still terribly endearing), Alwoodley must have been a light bulb moment."


Sean:

I do not agree with that and I don't think any history of architecture supports that.

Alwoodley was and is a great golf course but I just don't believe it was the first and certainly not the most significant one probably since it wasn't really that close in time to the first in the heathlands to get the attention and that lightbulb effect that the first few courses out of the heathlands created around the world. Maybe that's the way it looks to you today but I don't think it was looked at that way back then simply because it wasn't that close in time to the first of what were considered to be the FIRST great INLAND architecture that came out of that place from those architects. You should not just consider what Alwoodley looks like to you compared to Park Jr's Sunningdale and Huntercombe or even Fowler's first work, you should only consider how different Sunningdale and Huntercombe seemed to those back them compared to anything that'd come before them inland.  

Tom

We may be talking at cross purposes.  You seem to be saying that building on the heathlands was a light bulb moment.  I don't refute this.  I am suggesting that there was more than one light bulb moment and possibly more than two!  I think you are trying to broadly package the idea of inland golf architecure into pre and post heathlands.  Thats fine, however, this idea has been around a long time and it is badly lacking in details.  I am only trying trying to push the agenda out a bit further.

Of course the difficulty with your C&A theory is that we don't have the original Sunningdale or WH Old to check out.  They were changed and this strongly suggests there were glaring weaknesses.  What is now considered great is not what was put in the ground by Park and Fowler.  I believe by the time Colt redid the Sunningdale Old that the idea of a Huntercombe type course was distant history.  

We can however check out Huntercombe and so far as I know, not many people claim it is great - though I think they are mistaken.  I also think the difference between Huntercombe and Swinley in terms of the evolution of inland golf is as striking as the difference between Huntercombe and what came before - if not, then at the very least signifcantly different to say there was a major step forward in inland arhitecture.  When I write forward it is meant as in a timeline rather than better.  Of course I could be wrong.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

One thing about Fowler... to Sean Arble

You mention earlier that Park's old course at Sunningdale and Fowler's old course at Walton Heath have changed so much that they cannot be considered the work of the original architect... agreed...

...but you have failed to mention Fowler's new course at Walton Heath which initially opened in 1907, has been changed very little and could be argued to be of equal stature to the old course

[Ally Mcintosh]

Not to mention Abercromby whose course at Worplesdon opened in 1908 and was inspired by Sunningdale, Woking and Walton Heath, none of which had been touched by (or even based on the work of) Colt or MacKenzie... I guess he may have had more exposure by the time he built The Addington in 1912

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