Ray: When I first got here to Empire, I spent quite a bit of time on the Quarry Hills project....made several trips to Boston....in the end, we just couldn't quite get comfortble enough with the investment involved versus the return.....it will and I'm sure does make money, but the cost our our equity to inject into the deal to finish the project was too expensive to get a real ROI for us.

If I were to "guestimate" the costs involved here, a daily fee (with full RevPar and 95+% capacity utilization) would approximate near $200 in order to provide a 15-20% return for the invested $. If that # were to be diluted by the typical favoritism mandated by such a large-scale municipal project, those margins & the ROI would go out the door instantly.

This is another perfect example of why new urban public golf is near impossible these days.

What's the MTA situation for Ferry Point? Will it be like Vanny or Dyker, reachable via subway, or more like a Pelham/Split Rock? I think it makes a difference if you're looking at a $200 green fee...there's enough casual money in NYC to support that, in my opinion (not that it makes charging that much right, but that's another story...), but not many people want to rent a smartcar just to get in a round of golf.

I'm actually quite encouraged by what the new RFP says.  Unlike the previous deals, which required private dollars and risk, there are going to be two parts to this:

First, they are going to select an architect/construction manager.  The first part will be fairly normal, and the second part will be a huge pain as it will involve a great deal of red tape.  You also bid seperately for that cost.  

THIS IS IMPORTANT:  they are not asking for bids on the construction or the funds for the construction, just the oversight.  The city will then front the ENTIRE cost of construction, including remediation.  This is very good.  

After this is done, they will put out a new RFP based on the golf course plans.  Operators will then bid on the right to lease the golf course.  As part of that lease, they will have to front the money to build the clubhouse and whatever other amenities they want to build.  The city will set the rates and the lease term, meaning that if they set the rates too low, the lease payments will also be low, cutting the "return" to the city.  This means the city is determining its own economics.

Reading between the lines, I see this as their way of getting this done for once and for all.  I am sure they understand that they will be writing an exceptionally large check, particularly given the remediation.  

The people at the Parks department are smart, and a few are also golfers.  I'm sure they are very excited about this.  I'm sure they'll be impressed by the big names, but they've done work with totally unknown names in the past before, so I wouldn't worry too much.

I would highly encourage the architects on the board to at least take a look.  It will be the highest profile golf course built in this decade.  Just look how much press the lack of a golf course has received.  The architecture portion of this will not be any different than dealing with any other client.  Just make sure to get someone very good at internal NYC billing, etc., to help you.  Send me a message if you have any other questions.

Tom, the subway access is not good.  That said, even at Vanny, few golfers actually take the subway.

They wanted more than $90.

From the RFP:

"The Lead Golf Course Designer and/or a Principal or the officer of the firm responsible for performance
of the work of this contract, must hold a New York State Professional License in Landscape
Architecture, Architecture or Engineering, and the Resident Engineer must hold a New York State
Professional License in Engineering."

_______________________________________

http://nycgovparks.org/sub_about/parks_divisions/capital/pdf/FPPFinalRFP_1_11_08.pdf

Now if they have ferry service from the 90th Street dock on the East Side, this could get interesting...........

For those in the know, how much did the entire project at the Oakland Airport end up costing including the several years of landfill work and Johnny eventually building the Met links?

That must have been a pretty penny...