If you could only play the courses of five (5) golf course architects

« **Reply #25 on:** December 07, 2007, 07:09:14 AM »

For me the first two are easy.
1. Mackenzie
2. Colt
A few living guys.
3. C & C
4. Tom Doak
Number 5 is tough but for sheer volume of courses I would have to say
5. Donald Ross

« **Reply #26 on:** December 07, 2007, 07:12:29 AM »

"Maxwell is a very close 6th and if I knew more of his stuff he could very well make the top 5."

Sean,

Give Flynn a chance as well. You may be surprised where he settles on your list

Perhaps in 2008?

Raynor (the genius behind CB's egomania)

Rich,

Would you please explain this statement? Where is Raynor's genius expressed at NGLA for instance? At other Macdonald efforts including Piping Rock, St. Louis CC, Creek Club, Yale and Mid-Ocean?

« **Reply #27 on:** December 07, 2007, 07:34:32 AM »

Wayne

My understanding is that:

--at NGLA Macdonald roughly conceived the holes and Raynor built them. I'll value building over conception every day
--Raynor re-did CMB's imperfect Chicago to make it great
--Raynor did by himself what I assume to be the best of the MacRayBanks courses, Fisher's Island
--Raynor designed Cypress Point, only to have his plans stolen by Marion Hollins and give to her cross-dressing paramour, Mackenzie.

Of course, I could be wrong. Is the answer (as it always seems to be) Flynn?

« **Reply #28 on:** December 07, 2007, 08:22:13 AM »

A truly trite riposte, Rich. All kidding aside, do you really believe that 1) you value building over conception; 2) Fisher's Island, though unfinished, is better than NGLA and 3) there is evidence that anything at Cypress Point can be traced to Raynor?

By the way, Hollins clearly danced the lead when paired with MacKenzie at the Pasatiempo Winter Ball.

« **Reply #29 on:** December 07, 2007, 08:31:19 AM »

Wayne

1--not completely, but I think I'm on a winner here
2--never played Fisher's Island, but it looks better than NGLA from the pictures
3--not sure, but I'd like to believe so

Cheerio

Rich

« **Reply #30 on:** December 07, 2007, 08:36:33 AM »

Well, you go into too much detail, but I think that clears everything up.

Toodle pip,
Wayne

« **Reply #31 on:** December 07, 2007, 08:47:19 AM »

Can't believe Willie Park hasn't got a mention yet. My 5

Colt (that's a lot of great courses already)
Park
Braid
Mackenzie
J.H. Taylor (assuming that brings in all his collaborations and courses he contributed to)

That's rather limiting outside the UK, I suppose. As to moderns I don't know enough of the body of work of any of them to make a judgment.

« **Reply #32 on:** December 07, 2007, 09:39:48 AM »

In no particular order...

- Pete Dye--His golf courses are often the most intriguing visually; pretty big body of work.
- Macdonald/Raynor--It seems their work is so intertwined that they ought to go together as one architecture entity.
- Donald Ross--As has been said, large, consistently high-quality body of work.
- Geoffrey Cornish--Very prolific, and I could continue to play my own home course.
- Jack Nicklaus--He designed my other home course, and his work has evolved over the years such that there's a lot of different interesting work of his.

« **Reply #33 on:** December 07, 2007, 09:54:56 AM »

1.) Devereux Emmet
2.) Stanley Thompson
3.) Donald Ross
4.) Mike Strantz
5.) Tom Doak

« **Reply #34 on:** December 07, 2007, 10:19:21 AM »

Quote from: Richard Farnsworth Goodale on December 07, 2007, 07:34:32 AM

Wayne

--Raynor designed Cypress Point, only to have his plans stolen by Marion Hollins and give to her cross-dressing paramour, Mackenzie.

The small matter of him dying suddenly did have anything to do with that, did it?

Since no one has seen SR's plans, it would be hard to make that kind of assesment, unless you're throwing verbal molitov cocktails again.

« **Reply #35 on:** December 07, 2007, 10:26:10 AM »

MacKenzie

MacRaynor

Thomas

Coore & Crenshaw

Doak

* I have no experience with Flynn or Tillinghast, and not enough Ross, Thompson, Dye, Fowler, Colt, Braid.

Too much great golf, too little time.

« **Reply #36 on:** December 07, 2007, 10:36:01 AM »

Quote from: David Stamm on December 07, 2007, 10:19:21 AM

Quote from: Richard Farnsworth Goodale on December 07, 2007, 07:34:32 AM
Wayne

--Raynor designed Cypress Point, only to have his plans stolen by Marion Hollins and give to her cross-dressing paramour, Mackenzie.

The small matter of him dying suddenly did have anything to do with that, did it? Since no one has seen SR's plans, it would be hard to make that kind of assesment, unless you're throwing verbal molitov cocktails again.

Tommy Naccarato and I proved that several years ago, but unfortunately some Mackenzie worshipper stole our proof....

« **Reply #37 on:** December 07, 2007, 10:36:25 AM »

David,

He's throwing them, but he's been over in the UK so long he forgot how to throw very hard or accurately. "Throws like a girl" comes to mind

He's better of kicking the Molitov Cocktail

« **Reply #38 on:** December 07, 2007, 10:39:43 AM »

MacKenzie
Raynor
Ross
C & C
Doak

forgive me Wayne, Flynn was a close 6th, DeVries would be 7th.

« **Reply #39 on:** December 07, 2007, 10:59:44 AM »

I cannot forgive nor forget, Cory

But choose any Raynor courses you like (or are they MacRaynors? Wasn't Macdonald the architect of record at NGLA, Piping Rock, Creek Club, Mid-Ocean and likely St. Louis CC and Yale? If you go with MacRaynor or disagree with my attributions, then you must include Merion and TCC, Brookline as Flynn since more than 1/2 the work at each is Flynn.

How do the courses you considered by Raynor (or MacRaynor) compare as a group to:

Shinnecock Hills
Merion
Kittansett
Indian Creek
Huntingdon Valley
TCC, Brookline
Lancaster
Lehigh
Cascades
TCC, Pepper Pike
Boca Raton South (NLE)
Mill Road Farm (NLE)
Manufacturers
Rolling Green
Philadelphia Country
Pepper Pike Club
Pocantico Hills
Cherry Hills
Washington GCC
Eagles Mere
Merion West

« **Reply #40 on:** December 07, 2007, 11:17:21 AM »

Quote from: Wayne Morrison on December 07, 2007, 10:59:44 AM

I cannot forgive nor forget, Cory But choose any Raynor courses you like (or are they MacRaynors? Wasn't Macdonald the architect of record at NGLA, Piping Rock, Creek Club, Mid-Ocean and likely St. Louis CC and Yale? If you go with MacRaynor or disagree with my attributions, then you must include Merion and TCC, Brookline as Flynn since more than 1/2 the work at each is Flynn.

Good Point I should probably say MacRaynor instead of Raynor. As for defending my choice, I have neither the knowledge of architecture, nor the intelligence to argue my point. Do I think Flynn designed better golf courses? Absolutely. Does that matter to me? Not really. It's all a personal preference. I've enjoyed every Flynn I've played, but overall as a group I have gotten more satisfaction out of the MacRaynors I've played. I hope I'm not barred from visiting Ardmore ever again because of my preference

« **Reply #41 on:** December 07, 2007, 11:25:56 AM »

A lot of you aren't going to play much links golf with those selections.

« **Reply #42 on:** December 07, 2007, 11:35:32 AM »

1. A. H. Smith
2. George Crump
3. Hugh Wilson
4. George Klauder
5. Jesse T. Vodges

« **Reply #43 on:** December 07, 2007, 11:37:14 AM »

Dear JM,

I'm going to follow the lead of Wayne as I can only come up with three.

1. T. Fazio
2. Tom Fazio
3. Thomas Fazio

Sincerely,
M. Cirba

« **Reply #44 on:** December 07, 2007, 11:38:46 AM »

Based solely on courses that I've played:

MacKenzie
Colt
Braid
Old Tom Morris
Park

I've never been to the States which clearly eliminates many of the architects already mentioned on this thread.

« **Reply #45 on:** December 07, 2007, 11:49:04 AM »

Donald Ross

Harry Colt

Seth Raynor

William Langford

« **Reply #46 on:** December 07, 2007, 12:13:58 PM »

Sorry if I came out like I was putting you on the spot, Cory. It wasn't my intention nor do I hold it against you in any way. I'll just have to hang out with you more

« **Reply #47 on:** December 07, 2007, 06:54:32 PM »

Interesting responses... and interesting how the practicing architects never respond to these types of questions. Why is that?

I'd love to hear some input from a few GCAs.

Surprised that no one mentioned Tom Simpson yet.

« **Reply #48 on:** December 07, 2007, 07:46:59 PM »

Wayne, Lets mention some of Raynor's finer courses: Shoreacres, Chicago Golf,Camargo, Bluemound, Southhampton, Fishers Island,Yeaman's Hall etc..... My opinion having played several of these is that they can hold their own with any of the above courses in your list- just my opinion.

« **Reply #49 on:** December 07, 2007, 08:57:06 PM »

Good thread.

I've been shot down before for this, but how about some of your choice course selections to go with your architect selections and why...

Good keep this going.

News:

Andrew Hastie

wsmorrison

Rich Goodale

wsmorrison

Rich Goodale

wsmorrison

Mark Pearce

Tim Gavrich

Chris_Blakely

David Stamm

Bill_McBride

Rich Goodale

wsmorrison

Cory Lewis

wsmorrison

Cory Lewis

Paul_Turner

Joe Bausch

Joe Bausch

Andrew Mitchell

mark chalfant

wsmorrison

JMorgan

J_ Crisham

Patrick Kiser