What course is your "secret shame" regarding its architecture?

« **Reply #25 on:** December 04, 2007, 07:40:07 PM »

Our local muni, the venerable and elite Warminster's Five Ponds Golf Course.

Flattish greens with flat bunkers. EXCELLENT routing for a constrained site. Always windy. Many memories.

« **Reply #26 on:** December 04, 2007, 07:55:20 PM »

Wayne Golf Course
Bothell, WA

Par
4-5-3-4-4-4-3-4-3 (34)
4-3-4-3-3-3-4-4-3 (31) par 65 total.

Hole 12 - 172 yds - par 4

enough said........

« **Reply #27 on:** December 04, 2007, 08:13:35 PM »

1. Mountain course at Lake Placid-Short, fun to play, lots of quirk.

2. Blue Nine at Hunt Valley-Who knew there was a mountain course around baltimore?

3.Crooked River Ranch-Has a driveable Par 4 where you have to drive across a canyon to hit the green!!

« **Reply #28 on:** December 04, 2007, 09:43:18 PM »

Quote from: Steve_Lovett on December 04, 2007, 07:30:35 PM

Steve Verde:

Is Bear Mountain the course near Lake Chelan..?

It is a Jack Nicklaus design near Victoria, British Columbia. It is up on a mountain and overlooks the city and bay. I wouldn't consider it a great design because of some quirky holes but it is certainly fun to play and aesthetically pleasing

« **Reply #29 on:** December 04, 2007, 11:56:03 PM »

Quote from: Jay Flemma on December 04, 2007, 06:12:52 PM

Quote from: Bill Brightly on December 03, 2007, 10:27:20 PM
I'll take a shot:

1) Twisted Dunes, NJ. Links style. Qualified for my first MGA event here!

2) Troon North. My first desert course.

3) Old Head. Thought it was great, until I found this website and learned it was just a "dumb blonde" not a classic beauty

I hear ya about twisted and Troon North (Pinnacle). Yes they are prettier then they are intelectual...twisted used to be a good value years back, but they just can't keep a reasonable price point. Troon at least is a bargain in high summer. I've played there before for $75...

With all the houses, I didn't think Troon North was all that pretty playing it for the first time this year. I bet it used to be, but there aren't that many spots where you can see past the houses...

« **Reply #30 on:** December 05, 2007, 12:09:59 AM »

Pinehurst #8..

Quirky, yes.
Fazio template, yes.
Overpriced and Overhyped, yes to both.
But when the course is playing hard and fast, it's a good time.

« **Reply #31 on:** December 05, 2007, 12:41:27 AM »

As crass as the marketing is and the wild west names given the golf holes, Badlands in Las Vegas is fun. Some over the top desert style holes, but hey, you're in Vegas. It's shanefully expensive for what you get, but so is everywhere else there.

« **Reply #32 on:** December 05, 2007, 09:42:01 AM »

Here are a couple of mine ...

(Jay will know this one!) Valley View - A muni in Utica NY, full of some fine views, a number of good shots but also some really funky holes. At times, one of the poorest marshalled courses I've ever been on. That said, my passion for this game began on this course. I can remember my oldest brother coming home with $5 in his pocket after he looped two bags. We would then go out and play late afternoons.

Old Head -- I don't think this is the dumb blonde many others do, but put a gun to my head and I'll select this as a final round in Ireland for the combination of golf, views and the best deck in the world to swill Guiness.

« **Reply #33 on:** December 05, 2007, 10:39:02 AM »

Battle Island and Griffins Greens.
Both in the Oswego NY area.
Played my first rounds of golf out there with my buddies in college.
Great memories . . .

-Ted

« **Reply #34 on:** December 05, 2007, 11:38:44 AM »

Enjoying a few Dick Nugent courses such as Heritage Bluffs, Harborside Starboard and even George Dunne when the conditions are good.

« **Reply #35 on:** December 05, 2007, 03:28:20 PM »

Quote

With all the houses, I didn't think Troon North was all that pretty playing it for the first time this year. I bet it used to be, but there aren't that many spots where you can see past the houses...

Quote

I must have played Troon North 10-15 years ago, and there were no houses!

« **Reply #36 on:** December 05, 2007, 04:31:38 PM »

Tamarack - the 36 hole Middlesex County owned course in NJ....lots of rounds played there when I was younger and a county resident....I can still play a good portion of the place in my head if they hadn't really changed anyhting in 20 years... even in the heat of dead summer it was 4.5 hour rounds, but great fun.

« **Reply #37 on:** December 05, 2007, 04:54:40 PM »

Quote from: Dan Boerger on December 05, 2007, 09:42:01 AM

Here are a couple of mine ...

(Jay will know this one!) Valley View - A muni in Utica NY, full of some fine views, a number of good shots but also some really funky holes. At times, one of the poorest marshalled courses I've ever been on. That said, my passion for this game began on this course. I can remember my oldest brother coming home with $5 in his pocket after he looped two bags. We would then go out and play late afternoons.

Old Head -- I don't think this is the dumb blonde many others do, but put a gun to my head and I'll select this as a final round in Ireland for the combination of golf, views and the best deck in the world to swill Guiness.

Oh you did not just nominate hank furgol's "Valley Zoo!" as he puts it!

Dan, this link is for you:

http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=390

« **Reply #38 on:** December 05, 2007, 05:01:03 PM »

City Park (Denver, CO)

I took up the game around 7 years ago, and my first house was next to City Park... Nothing worthy of note, other than the EXTREME back to front slope on the first 4 holes... I've played City Park with Jonathon Kaye and he still says that the slope on 1-4 would put ANGC to shame... You HAVE to be below the hole if you want to stay on the green... plain and simple

Especially during the Denver Am.

Alexandria Golf Club (Alexandria, MN)

It's THE club in my home town, it's where Tom Lehman learned the game and for me it will always be my Augusta

Pole Creek Golf Club (Winter Park, CO)

After I escaped Denver and moved to the mountains, I took over the marketing for this fine 27-hole facility. Best New in GD back in '86... This is where I learned to appreciate the game, the history and the architecture which we all seem so enamored with (and for good reason). Beautiful setting, 18 holes play thru valleys and meadows while the Ridge 9 is the closest thing to TRUE mountain golf that I have had the pleasure of playing (and I've played most of CO).

All fun courses that would make a a great day if you happen to be in the area... On the Doak scale, maybe a ?. But, let us not forget that golf is about fun, competition and enjoying the pleasures to be had, if only for 3-4 hours

« **Reply #39 on:** December 05, 2007, 06:21:31 PM »

Quote from: Bill Brightly on December 05, 2007, 03:28:20 PM

Quote

With all the houses, I didn't think Troon North was all that pretty playing it for the first time this year. I bet it used to be, but there aren't that many spots where you can see past the houses...
Quote

I must have played Troon North 10-15 years ago, and there were no houses!

Bill,
I've heard people say that they liked it much better pre-housing. Its pretty close in on both sides of many holes now at least on the New Pinnacle holes. #11 (old #11 Monument) is a beautiful hole and one of the few that still probably has that old feel (not having played it pre-housing).

I have a bad feeling that could be Vista Verde in about 10 years. Great course now, but if they build on both sides of it the ambiance and views will be gone. Won't be a bad course, just as Troon North is by no means bad now, but not the setting that it must have once been.

« **Reply #40 on:** December 05, 2007, 10:56:38 PM »

My entire childhood was filled with these. It's a wonder I've wanted to design courses since I was 5.

Jones Masterpiece at Treetops (RTJ Sr.): Loved the "Up North" scenery (lots of other "secret shames" derive from this) and the use of valleys and topography (3,5,14) to create strategy instead of penalty stroke ponds or wetlands. My dad and I used to hit about 10 shots apiece into the drop-shot 6th. My love here has certainly faded here though with the discovery of so much other architecture.

Newman Municipal (Lord knows. City council of Ithaca?): Devoid of any real strong architecture, but the lightly rolling un-irrigated silty-clay soil is damn fun to play in a drought. Also has two sets of tees from different yardages and angles so that a different experience can be had the second go 'round (nine-hole layout.) As crappy as it may seem, this place certainly does seem to embody the spirit of the game.

Wabeek (Dye, Nicklaus): Boy did I hate this place until it became my high school's home course, where we never lost a match. The conditions are as "good" as any (green, smooth, lush, all that jazz) and the design at times as penal as any I've ever seen. But the emotions and demand of shotmaking (as well as learning where to miss a green) that it brought about from day to day and in matches was something that really grew on me, and I began to appreciate its extremes in the end.

« **Reply #41 on:** December 05, 2007, 11:12:21 PM »

I really liked the old Marsh Point at Kiawah -- the Gary Player course that was gutted ten years ago and renamed "Cougar Point." I enjoyed it more than Turtle or Osprey. But the first time I played, some guy riding past on a bike yelled at me, "Hey, why aren't you playing one of the good courses?"

For the hard-core public-course New Englanders out there, I'm also a big fan of Trull Brook, in eastern MA near the NH border. On the 1st tee, you have a choice between hitting a 5 iron to set up a wedge approach or trying to drive the green by hitting through a bunch of tall but relatively sparse trees. The rest of the course isn't quite that weird, but it's close. I love it.

« **Reply #42 on:** December 05, 2007, 11:53:38 PM »

Gleneagles International GC in the Bay Area. It is only 9 holes, situated on the side of a hill and the conditions can be bad but there are more fun and unique shots to be found there than most other courses you will play. When the ground gets hard and the greens get running fast it is a pure joy to play.

Elkhorn Valley near Salem OR. Built entirely by hand by a man named Don Cutler, it took about 35 years for him to build 16 holes literally doing everything himself before he died of a heart attack. His son build 17 and 18. It is a tight course with a ton of underbrush to eat your ball if you miss a fairway by too much. It is also a spectacular piece of land with many natural streams, valleys, ravines, waterfalls, wetlands etc. The course is by no means great but it is also very natural, follows the lay of the land and is very unique.

« **Reply #43 on:** December 06, 2007, 08:45:59 AM »

Jay - Now that's funny! Valley View was the site of my first pure 8 iron, the place where I first ever chipped in and where I hit that first perfect drive, so you "never forget your first" as they say.

I haven't lived in Utica for over 20 years, but actually played Valley View about 10 years ago. A close friend of mine and I showed up one summer afternoon about 3pm. The "pro" and boy do I use that term loosely, grunted his was through our transaction and never made eye contact as he told jokes to his buddies who were staring my friend and I down as if we had "radical muslim" boldly printed on our back. We then proceeded to get behind a 5-some that literally dropped extra balls in the fairway if they didn't like the shot they hit. After a frustrating 9 holes, I mentioned this to the alleged pro who, again eyes down and in the same monotone grunt told me "no 5-somes allowed". I honestly think some people work at not working harder than they do at working.

I'm fortunate to play some amazing course in the Philly and NY metro areas, but I equally enjoy my first round at Thendara in Old Forge NY every year since it it's the unofficial start of a wonderful family vacation.

« **Reply #44 on:** December 06, 2007, 11:47:36 AM »

Quote from: Bill Brightly on December 04, 2007, 02:04:41 PM

Eric,
Regarding Twisred Dunes, I actually really like the course, but I've seen it ripped here a few times. I think they don't like the amount of dirt that was moved to create the dunes, or something. I think it's cool, but assumed experts know better than me

Bill,

Thanks for the honest response. It's along the lines of what I expected was the case. You've read other golfclubatlas.com members rip the course and naturally assumed it had little architectural merit because of what you read. Right?

My take: Even if 1000 members didn't like Twisted Dune, it has merit to many others who play there, who work there and I'll go out on limb and say that from pictures I've seen of the course, I'd very much enjoy playing it.

Did you know Tom Doak said that he thought Kingsbarns was the best example of golf architecture he'd seen and that it was completely manufactured?

Archie Struthers, who I don't know, but know I would like him, (he's so damn positive!) has a solid understanding of gca and what is good and what is bad, from what I've read and been told by others who've worked with him. A cool response from him on the merits of the course would be right on,

hint... But he's been there and done that. Old news.

Though we all will never agree, nor should we, (I think?), I just wanted to say that you don't have to call Twisted Dune or any other course your 'secret shame' just because others think it is a 'shame'. There is no "Declared Shame List of Golf Courses".

well Tom Doak's book...

Leaping off the soap box,

Eric

« **Reply #45 on:** December 06, 2007, 11:56:39 AM »

I love TD and think the great majority on this site hold the course in high regard.

« **Reply #46 on:** December 06, 2007, 12:32:16 PM »

Quote from: TonyP on December 05, 2007, 05:01:03 PM

City Park (Denver, CO)

I took up the game around 7 years ago, and my first house was next to City Park... Nothing worthy of note, other than the EXTREME back to front slope on the first 4 holes... I've played City Park with Jonathon Kaye and he still says that the slope on 1-4 would put ANGC to shame... You HAVE to be below the hole if you want to stay on the green... plain and simple Especially during the Denver Am.

Tony--Amazing, City Park came to mind for me regarding this thread. The sloped greens and the challenging and varied par 3s make for a surprisingly decent course/round of golf (if you don't get mugged, which happened to a golfing buddy of mine some years back).

I also enjoyed Cougar Point on Kiawah that Jay Cox mentioned; much better than anticipated--I expected a boring housing complex shooting gallery but it had much more width and variety than that. I'd play it again anytime.

I suspect many of the courses we grew up on/learned on fall into this category. They may not be architectural gems but they are lovable just the same.

« **Reply #47 on:** December 06, 2007, 01:10:21 PM »

Doug -

Yeah, I was waiting to hear from someone else who has delved into "the park"

Though I have never been mugged, I have had the occasional golf ball disappear (or rather, stolen) by the "inhabitants."

In hindsight, Denver has a ton of public quirk... Wellshire, Arrowhead, City Park, Evergreen (already mentioned... what a hoot!) that would all qualify as memorable...

Now that I'm in AZ, I miss that. Beyond the high-end privates, the "secret shames" are pretty much basic, desert lay-outs that look (and feel) the same... Oh well, I will be back in CO soon enough

« **Reply #48 on:** December 06, 2007, 01:23:18 PM »

Quote from: TonyP on December 06, 2007, 01:10:21 PM

Doug -
In hindsight, Denver has a ton of public quirk... Wellshire, Arrowhead, City Park, Evergreen (already mentioned... what a hoot!) that would all qualify as memorable...

Tony,

IMO Wellshire doesn't fit on this thread. It isn't "really low for architectural value." It actually is a damn good golf course that has been buried by municipal neglect. Nor does Arrowhead, but for other another reason. It's "really low for architectural value," but this course does not "resonate" for me at all. It's simply shameful.

« **Reply #49 on:** December 06, 2007, 03:42:39 PM »

Tony and Doug,

In keeping with the Colorado theme, I enjoy Keystone Ranch (and River, actually), Pole Creek and the Raven at Three Peaks (back nine) more than their architecture warrants. I'm not sure I'm with you on City Park--"it beats the heck out of Park Hill" is about as much I can say on its behalf. Evergreen is simply a health hazard.

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