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Tony_Muldoon

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Re:Excellent essay in the Wall Street Journal
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2007, 10:34:44 AM »
"I want essays to be precisely and completely true. Anything else is fiction -- which can be a fine thing, so long as it doesn't masquerade as fact."

Dan just asking if you hold the same to be true on here?  If I post something about a round I played with a friend, as distinct from a factual report on the course, are you concerned if my story seems a little 'tall'?  If we're joshing in a bar are you always looking to see if what I'm saying has the ring of accuracy or the kernel of a greater truth or heaven forbid is entertaining?

I think what I'm getting at is I saw the piece as a little homily about his family life where he 'overegged the pudding'.  Doesn't make it fiction.  Just a story that wasn't told that well.


There used to be a bar in Skibereen(fact?) that had all manner on 'bon mots' printed on the beer mats.  A favorite of mine.

"I'll have you know I'm a bit of a bullshitter myself; but carry on, I'm all ears".
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 10:38:45 AM by Tony_Muldoon »
2025 Craws Nest Tassie, Carnoustie.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Excellent essay in the Wall Street Journal
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2007, 11:06:50 AM »
Tony --

In print, or here, or in a bar, or anywhere, a story is much more entertaining (emphasis: to me) if it sounds true. That is ... if it's supposed to be a true story.

I like true stories.
 
I like tall tales, too.

I just don't like tall tales that pretend to be true stories!

This may or may not be relevant:

There's a thing that's been circulating on the Internet for more than a decade now. You've probably seen it. People send it to me all the time. It's a list of similes and metaphors supposedly gleaned from high-school essays. Here's one of my favorites: "He  was as tall as a six-foot-three-inch tree."

Funny, right?

Right. Yes.

But it DIDN'T come from some hapless high-schooler. It came (as did all of the rest of them) from some clever reader of the Washington Post, who submitted it to the Style section's "Style Invitational" contest, which had asked readers to come up with the worst analogies they could devise.

What possessed someone, somewhere along the line, to transform a true funny thing into a false funny thing?

Did it get funnier, thereby? Not to me. It lost its humor when it lost its truth.

Same thing goes for serious stuff.

Dan

P.S. I love the expression "overegg the pudding." Never heard it before.

P.P.S. Here they are:

4th Runner-Up: Oooo, he smells bad, she thought, as bad as Calvin
Klein's Obsession would smell if it were called Enema and was made
from spoiled Spamburgers instead of natural floral fragrances.
(Jennifer Frank, Washington, and Jimmy Pontzer, Sterling)

3rd Runner-Up: The baseball player stepped out of the box and spit
like a fountain statue of a Greek god that scratches itself a lot and
spits brown, rusty tobacco water and refuses to sign autographs for
all the little Greek kids unless they pay him lots of drachmas. (Ken
Krattenmaker, Landover Hills)

2nd Runner-Up: I felt a nameless dread. Well, there probably is a
long German name for it, like Geschpooklichkeit or something, but I
don't speak German. Anyway, it's a dread that nobody knows the name
for, like those little square plastic gizmos that close your bread
bags. I don't know the name for those either. (Jack Bross, Chevy
Chase)

1st Runner-Up: She was as unhappy as when someone puts your cake out
in the rain, and all the sweet green icing flows down and then you
lose the recipe, and on top of that you can't sing worth a damn.
(Joseph Romm, Washington)

And the winner of the framed Scarlet Fever sign: His fountain pen was
so expensive it looked as if someone had grabbed the pope, turned him
upside down and started writing with the tip of his big pointy hat.
(Jeffrey Carl, Richmond)

Honorable Mentions

- He was as tall as a six-foot-three-inch tree. (Jack Bross, Chevy Chase)

- The hailstones leaped from the pavement, just like maggots when you
fry them in hot grease. (Gary F. Hevel, Silver Spring)

- The politician was gone but unnoticed, like the period after the
Dr. on a Dr Pepper can. (Wayne Goode, Madison, Ala.)

- He spoke with the wisdom that can only come from experience, like a
guy who went blind because he looked at a solar eclipse without one
of those boxes with a pinhole in it and now goes around the country
speaking at high schools about the dangers of looking at a solar
eclipse without one of those boxes with a pinhole in it. (Joseph
Romm, Washington)

- She caught your eye like one of those pointy hook latches that used
to dangle from screen doors and would fly up whenever you banged the
door open again. (Rich Murphy, Fairfax Station)

- She was sending me more mixed signals than a dyslexic third-base
coach. (Jack Bross, Chevy Chase)

- The little boat gently drifted across the pond exactly the way a
bowling ball wouldn't. (Russell Beland, Springfield) - Having O.J.
try on the bloody glove was a stroke of genius unseen since the debut
of Goober on "Mayberry R.F.D". (John Kammer, Herndon)

- From the attic came an unearthly howl. The whole scene had an
eerie, surreal quality, like when you're on vacation in another city
and "Jeopardy" comes on at 7 p.m. instead of 7:30. (Roy Ashley,
Washington)

- Her hair glistened in the rain like nose hair after a sneeze.
(Chuck Smith, Woodbridge)

- Her eyes were like two brown circles with big black dots in the
center. (Russell Beland, Springfield)

- Bob was as perplexed as a hacker who means to access
T:flw.quid55328.com\aaakk/ch@ung but gets T:\flw.quidaaakk/ch@ung
by mistake (Ken Krattenmaker, Landover Hills)

- Her vocabulary was as bad as, like, whatever.

- Her date was pleasant enough, but she knew that if her life was a
movie this guy would be buried in the credits as something like
"Second Tall Man." (Russell Beland, Springfield)

- Long separated by cruel fate, the star-crossed lovers raced across
the grassy field toward each other like two freight trains, one
having left Cleveland at 6:36 p.m. traveling at 55 mph, the other
from Topeka at 4:19 p.m. at a speed of 35 mph. (Jennifer Hart,
Arlington)

- Upon completing kindergarten, Lance felt the same sense of
accomplishment the Unabomber feels every time he successfully blows
up another college professor. (Anonymous, no city please)

- They lived in a typical suburban neighborhood with picket fences
that resembled Nancy Kerrigan's teeth (Paul Kocak, Syracuse, N.Y.)

- John and Mary had never met. They were like two hummingbirds who
had also never met. (Russell Beland, Springfield)

- His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances
like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free (Chuck Smith,
Woodbridge)

- After sending in my entries for the Style Invitational, I feel
relieved and apprehensive, like a little boy who has just wet his
bed. (Wayne Goode, Madison, Ala.)

- You made my day, even a day as gray as white cotton sheets washed
for decades in cold water without bleach like no self-respecting
woman who came of age in the 1940s would allow in her house, much
less on one of her beds, but up with which she must put whenever she
visits one of her own daughters, just as if they had never been
brought up right. (DEV, Madison, Wis)

« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 11:08:11 AM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Gary Daughters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Excellent essay in the Wall Street Journal
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2007, 11:19:32 AM »

Mr. Snyder seems to have gotten pinned to the mat by his narrative.  I sympathize, but I wonder what his son thinks.
THE NEXT SEVEN:  Alfred E. Tupp Holmes Municipal Golf Course, Willi Plett's Sportspark and Driving Range, Peachtree, Par 56, Browns Mill, Cross Creek, Piedmont Driving Club

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Excellent essay in the Wall Street Journal
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2007, 12:10:00 PM »
Every time I read a list of entries for one of those Bad Writing contests, half of them sound like passages I crossed out in one of my early drafts, while the rest are so brilliant I despair of ever coming up with something half as good. These are excellent:

She was sending me more mixed signals than a dyslexic third-base coach.

Her date was pleasant enough, but she knew that if her life was a movie this guy would be buried in the credits as something like
"Second Tall Man."

I feel relieved and apprehensive, like a little boy who has just wet his bed.


I would alter one of them, however: "They lived in a typical suburban neighborhood with picket fences that resembled Stephen Ames's teeth."



 
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 12:11:17 PM by Rick Shefchik »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Excellent essay in the Wall Street Journal
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2007, 01:17:21 AM »
Well, I believe the guy played golf with his son at Carnoustie.  Beyond that I'm skeptical about pretty much everything else given that some of it is definitely untrue.  I don't know if it was intended to be a bit of an embellished tale, or he's got his tongue in his cheek when writing some of that stuff, or if he just believes that the WSJ audience is that dumb.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Eamon Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Excellent essay in the Wall Street Journal
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2007, 02:18:47 AM »
What struck me as the most obvious example of creative license was his line about hooking his tee shot at the first hole into the sea. That's an impressive feat since finding the sea from the first tee at Carnoustie would require a hook that travels about 400 yards dead left, into the same wind that apparently blew his son's ball 50 yards to the right.


Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Excellent essay in the Wall Street Journal
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2007, 09:33:15 AM »
As long as this thread keeps on keeping on ... I'll ask about one of the many things that made me wonder:

Does Carnoustie's scorecard have a map on it?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Excellent essay in the Wall Street Journal
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2007, 09:36:40 AM »
What struck me as the most obvious example of creative license was his line about hooking his tee shot at the first hole into the sea. That's an impressive feat since finding the sea from the first tee at Carnoustie would require a hook that travels about 400 yards dead left, into the same wind that apparently blew his son's ball 50 yards to the right.



and I thought my hook could be bad! ;) ::)
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Jeff Loh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Excellent essay in the Wall Street Journal
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2007, 09:59:00 AM »
no map on scorecard for championship course (circa 2005)

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Excellent essay in the Wall Street Journal
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2007, 10:16:21 AM »
The story and this thread reminded me of this:

George: I got about fifty-feet out and then suddenly the great beast

appeared before me. I tell ya he was ten stories high if he was a

foot. As if sensing my presence he gave out a big bellow. I said,

"Easy big fella!" And then as I watched him struggling I realized

something was obstructing his breathing. From where I was standing

I could see directly into the eye of the great fish!

Jerry: Mammal.

George: Whatever.

Kramer: Well, what did you do next?

George: Then from out of nowhere a huge title wave lifted, tossed like a

quark and I found myself on top of him face to face with the

blow-hole. I could barely see from all of the waves crashing down on

top of me but I knew something was there so I reached my hand and

pulled out the obstruction!

 

(George pulls out of the inside pocket a golf ball)

 

Tom Huckaby

Re:Excellent essay in the Wall Street Journal
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2007, 10:17:19 AM »
Kramer:  "is it a Titleist?"

 ;D

Peter Pallotta

Re:Excellent essay in the Wall Street Journal
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2007, 10:53:49 AM »
Well gents, you've managed to pretty much tank any remaining good feelings I had about the piece  :)

I'm usually a pretty tough critic of writing in general, and of first person non-fiction in particular. But I think I wanted to be 'fooled' by this essay. I liked these lines very much:

"All day I watched Jack returning to himself. Some men take their children to church hoping to point the way for them through the darkness of the world. I had brought my son here for the same reason."

I would like to believe that was heartfelt and true. My little boy just turned 16 months old.

And, as we sometimes say about golf courses, one great/memorable hole can make up for a whole bunch of mediocre ones.

Peter

Tom Huckaby

Re:Excellent essay in the Wall Street Journal
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2007, 11:02:45 AM »
Peter:

As a Dad, I enjoyed the piece, for much the same reasons you state.

As a golfer who's played Carnoustie, it annoyed me, due to the innacuracies already stated.

If I were a writer like Dan and Rick, the latter would likely outweigh the former.  It's just not cool to fabricate for the sake of tugging heartstrings, or any sake really.

But I am not a writer, so I tend not to care about fabrications too much.  The problem is, he decided to fabricate about the one subject on which I might have some knowledge.  So in the end I came away more annoyed than inspired.

Make this about another subject and the Dad would take over.

Maybe this helps?  Maybe I've confused things even more?

 ;D

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Excellent essay in the Wall Street Journal
« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2007, 11:18:41 AM »
"All day I watched Jack returning to himself. Some men take their children to church hoping to point the way for them through the darkness of the world. I had brought my son here for the same reason."

There's no reason this part can't be true, even amidst other exaggerations/half-truths.

It's a sad reflection of our world today, where everything has to be marketed or sold with zest times 1000.

There's no place in the world for plain old boring folk like me.

 :)

I will say, the exaggerations in this piece don't bother me as much as the other piece, with Tom D and the other writer whose name escapes me. Most people exaggeration when telling a story - I've even say through meetings where later on, the recollection of them were completely different from 2 people who were both there and were both trying to be factual. There's a difference between embellishing and outright fabricating.

Peter, 16 months old - as much fun as you've been having to date, it's about to get really interesting!
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Excellent essay in the Wall Street Journal
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2007, 06:30:38 PM »
Dan, Here is an excellent essay from the current thread “Golfing Societies”


I used to be an artisan member myself Sean, of Stoke Poges. I was working on the greenstaff at the time and that was the only way I could get some competitive golf in. There were about 30 of them in the club and we inhabited an old cellar in the clubhouse. They were the most hilarious people to play golf with. Early morning whiskeys before tee off, an endless steam of filthy jokes, breaking wind on the top of other peoples backswings. Great fun!!

To give you an example of the sort of eccentricities that they were capable of I will recount the true story that one of them called Jim told me. Jim was a typical old artisan full of all sorts of aches and ailments that a lifetime of toil at the local chemical factory had bestowed upon him. One day he and an equally worn out partner were playing a foreball match against another local artisan team. Between them they had as usual been soundly thrashed and so Jim came up a fiendish ruse on how they could retrieve their lost stake money. “I bet you,” he said to the opposition “that me and my partner have got five balls between us”. (I must just point out that the balls in question were not the ones used for playing golf but were in fact the low compression variety that men possess for the purposes of furthering the species.) Upon hearing this statement Jim’s partner said “Hold on a minute Jim. Do you know what you’re doing”? “Don’t worry,” said Jim “It’ll be alright” and he repeated the challenge to the opposition. As they were artisans themselves they were not particularly surprised at the conversation, which was quite typical in such circles but they were rather intrigued. After further discussion on the bet and further objections from Jim’s partner the opposition agreed, reasoning that witnessing this unusual spectacle would be worth the money anyway. The scene was then set for the full exposure of Jim and his partners private accoutrements for the opposing team and presumably anyone else in the area to view. At this point Jim’s partner said “well Jim, I hope you’ve got four, cos. I’ve only got the one!”
 To explain, Jim it turned out, had caught something in his nether regions that had given the impression of having an extra one of these spherical objects. He had assumed that his partner had the standard number therefore bringing the total to five. However, what Jim did not realise was his partner had recently lost one of the said objects to the surgeons scalpel having not long previously developed problems of his own down below, so to speak.


I realise I will kill all the humour by analysing but I think it serves the point I was getting at.

Clearly (OK “IMO”)  in the above Marc is telling 100% the truth in relating what was told to him.  I also believe the anatomical details 100% - that’s the whole point of the story.  However I would wager a guess that the originator of the tale might have been prone to arranging his facts in a way that brings out the humour of a story and in this case a kind of truth.

The point I’m making is I feel your standards are laudable for the News section of a newspaper ... but for life?  


I want essays to be precisely and completely true. Anything else is fiction -- which can be a fine thing, so long as it doesn't masquerade as fact.

Dan

We all have to use our judgment all the tie when information is presented to us, and I find it harder to separate fact from fiction than you want to.  As newspapers are more and more comprised of opinion pieces and columnists I think that distinction will become more important.




If I was to guess where the facts get ‘edited’ in the above it is in the presentation of the bet.  Any betting man would look twice were such a bet offered up.

Sky Masterson: One of these days in your travels, a guy is going to show you a brand-new deck of cards on which the seal is not yet broken. Then this guy is going to offer to bet you that he can make the jack of spades jump out of this brand-new deck of cards and squirt cider in your ear. But, son, do not accept this bet, because as sure as you stand there, you're going to wind up with an ear full of cider.

I still rate Mark as having given us a great non fiction story.
2025 Craws Nest Tassie, Carnoustie.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Excellent essay in the Wall Street Journal
« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2007, 08:19:02 PM »

The point I’m making is I feel your standards are laudable for the News section of a newspaper ... but for life?  


Tony --

Of course, we were talking about a serious essay in the pages of a serious newspaper -- not about a little anecdote on gca.com!

And having said that, as they say: I think there's more truth in Marc Haring's little story than there was in that WSJ essay. Just my hunch. As you say, we all have to play our hunches.

I'm most certainly not talking about "editing" the facts to make one's writing more effective. That's what every writer does. That's what writing is! What I'm talking about is making stuff up -- like 400-yard hooks, and scorecards with maps that don't have maps, and ...

As for killing humor via analysis, I give you one of my favorite lines from my favorite essayist, E.B. White: "Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but the thing dies in the process, and the innards are discouraging to any but the purely scientific mind."

Oh, and one more thing: I do wonder, in the context of Marc Haring's story, what a "foreball" match might be. (Don't analyze that!)

Dan

« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 08:19:45 PM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016