[Ash Towe]

On the Mornington Peninsula there is The Moonah duo.  The Open course is the main event but I found The Legends course to be more varied and interesting.
Also at the National club, if the Moonah course is number one, then there is the choice between the Old course and the Ocean.  I had a preferance here for the Old.
I have only played these courses twice so they are limited impressions.  Perhaps some of the contibutors from across the pond would like to comment.

[Kyle Henderson]

Olympic-Ocean.

From walking the courses, it appeared to be a tad less demanding from a shot-making standpoint than the Lake, but it's more exposed to the elements and packed with quality holes.

[Kevin Pallier]

In the courses I've seen - Sunningdale (New) would get my vote followed by say Walton Heath (New) and St. Andrews (New).

In Australia - one cant go past Royal Melbourne (East) though I wouldn't mind a choice of either National (Old) / (Moonah) courses.

I look forward to seeing Claytons rework of the Peninsula South course. The Peninsula is interesting because historically the North course was somewhat considered the lesser of the two courses. Since Clayton's re-work in 2002 the North course has been reborn into the premier layout at the club.

A couple more than conceptually that I would like to see happen one day - a second Barnbougle couse and the Fingal course at St. Andrews Beach.

[J_ Crisham]

Ballybunion New has a couple of quirky holes but also a few great ones along the sea-possibly as or more difficult  as the Old.

[KBanks]

The Valley course at Royal Portrush merits consideration in this category.

Ken

[J_ Crisham]

Ken, I felt the valley course was decent but given the caliber of Portstewart or Castlerock hard to justify missing out on either of these if time is an issue.

[Bob_Huntley]

How about showing up at MPCC to play the Shore and being told you have to play the Dunes?

Or how about showing up at MPCC to play the Dunes and being told you have to play the Shore?

In my opinion, a win win...

Scott (and Bob)

which is the second course?

James B

James,

The original is the Dunes by Raynor, circa 1925. He died after the first nine and it was completed by Robert Hunter.  I feel the par three 10th has much about it that could be attributed to MacKenzie, as he had some sort of affiliation or partnership with Hunter at that time.

Rees Jones did the renovation in 1999 which I consider to be a great success.


The original Shore course was built in 1960 for $150,000.00 by Bob Baldock, and a very enjoyable course it was too. The Strantz course, apart from the routing of the first four and last two holes was a completely brand new golf course that probably cost about ninety times that.


Bob

[Mike_Trenham]

What most people don't know is that Bethpage is the ONLY facility in America that has had THREE courses host national championships of the USGA. In 1936 both the Red and Blue courses were used for the Public Links championship.

I think Bandon Dunes Resort can claim this as well today.

[Philip Spogard]

I think when it comes to the heathland courses that both Sunningdale New and Walton Heath New are more interesting architcturally than their Older 'brothers'.

Sunningdale New (especially the area around the 6th and that part of the course) is much more a heathland landscape than the Old Course - even though it is still very different than that from the original design (judging from old photos).

Walton Heath New is relatively close to its original design whereas the Old has been changed significantly over the years. From some case studies I did there this year, the committees seems very aware of this and are trying to preserve the layout of the New course.

[Dan Boerger]

The best one two punches I've ever expereienced are Winged Foot and Walton Heath. Throw a towel over these courses. I recall how Walton Heath used a combination of holes for the 81 Ryder Cup. And while there isn't a bad hole on WFW, I'm sure the same could be done for events they host. Merion West is a wonderful second course that accommodates players of all abilities (as compared to its older sister) and one that no matter how good you are you will delight in playing. I can't think of a better way to warm up for the East Course.

[Dan Herrmann]

Merion West.  Not only is it a helluva golf course, it's a relaxed and more casual atmosphere.  The type of place that's perfect for that late day outing where you race the sun to the 18th green, laughing and having a blast all the way.  Some pretty wonderful architecture there too!

-------------
Conversely, Stonewall's new course gets very little play.  I always see gofers on the original course, but very rarely on the new.  The parking lot is often empty.

Strange, because it's really a beautiful place.

[tlavin]

I haven't played Winged Foot or Merion, or the Ocean Course at Olympic Club for that matter, but LA Country Club South is plenty solid, as is Medinah #1.  And I have to put in a vote for the South Course at Olympia Fields (bias duly noted), especially in its Steve Smyers renovated/restored form as it opens next spring.  A spectacular transformation.

[Mark Pearce]

How about Crail?  I think that the Balcomie Links is probably more historically interesting rather than a great course.  The Craighead Links, in contrast, gets very little love and is underplayed but on my only visit I thought it was a really interesting course and tough.  I'd suggest that whereas with many of the clubs identified in this thread the "first" course is tough and the "second" more fun and quirky the reverse is true at Crail.

p.s.  I'm not suggesting that either course is a truly great course but the contrast is notable.

[Jason McNamara]

What about the second 18 at St. George's Hill?  Is the current 3d nine simply half of the former 'new' course there, or was there substantial re-design after WW2?

Would the 2nd 18 at The Addington have belonged in Mark's original list?

[Ally Mcintosh]

What about the second 18 at St. George's Hill?  Is the current 3d nine simply half of the former 'new' course there, or was there substantial re-design after WW2?

Would the 2nd 18 at The Addington have belonged in Mark's original list?

from what i saw of st georges hill, the 3rd (green) nine doesn't reach the heights of the proper 18... it seems more crowded and less playable... some lovely holes all the same... i've no idea whetehr there was a redesign or whether this nine was exactly one half of the old 2nd course...

walton heath and sunningdale are the two that immediately spring to my mind although there's an interesting one in ireland at powerscourt (www.powerscourt.ie)... although obviously not in the top tier of courses that we have been talking about, there are nevertheless two very good parkland layouts where the newer of the courses (designed by david kidd in 2003) is actually a far better test than the older course (designed by peter mcevoy in 1996)...

[Marc Haring]

Sunningdale New (especially the area around the 6th and that part of the course) is much more a heathland landscape than the Old Course - even though it is still very different than that from the original design (judging from old photos).

Agreed Philip; in fact here is the 6th.



I agree, it would be nice to get the new back to its former open heath glory, or at the very least start to control the trees. I think the 6th above would be a truly great par five without the trees especially those on the right side of the fairway.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sunningdale New (especially the area around the 6th and that part of the course) is much more a heathland landscape than the Old Course - even though it is still very different than that from the original design (judging from old photos).

Agreed Philip; in fact here is the 6th.



I agree, it would be nice to get the new back to its former open heath glory, or at the very least start to control the trees. I think the 6th above would be a truly great par five without the trees especially those on the right side of the fairway.

marc, when was that photo taken?... i am sure that they have cleared a lot of those trees... i stood on the back tee at the 6th this summer and saw acres and acres of open heath... i'm convinced the 6th was framed in a sea of purple all around the dogleg...

...my memory may well be failing me...

...philip will put me right...

[Marc Haring]

Sunningdale New (especially the area around the 6th and that part of the course) is much more a heathland landscape than the Old Course - even though it is still very different than that from the original design (judging from old photos).

Agreed Philip; in fact here is the 6th.



I agree, it would be nice to get the new back to its former open heath glory, or at the very least start to control the trees. I think the 6th above would be a truly great par five without the trees especially those on the right side of the fairway.

marc, when was that photo taken?... i am sure that they have cleared a lot of those trees... i stood on the back tee at the 6th this summer and saw acres and acres of open heath... i'm convinced the 6th was framed in a sea of purple all around the dogleg...

...my memory may well be failing me...

...philip will put me right...

According to my photo properties, June 2004. I had heard they were doing some tree clearance and indeed were in the process when I took the picture. I believe the intention was to restore the New back to open heath but to keep the trees and indeed promote the parkland feel on the Old. Don't quote me but I heard they were going after the ANGC look on the Old.

[Tom Birkert]

That photo must be at least a couple of years old! The majority of those trees have indeed been removed (on both the left and right hand side).

From the tee you now can only see a couple of trees just right of the fairway about landing distance for the drive, and then all the trees on the right hand side have been removed so the sweep and camber of the fairway up to the green can be seen. The bunkers around the green have also been remodelled.

The trees on the left have been significantly cleared so that the stanza between the 6th, 7th and 8th is a lot barer. Heather has been planted in the area.

The New has seen a lot of tree removal, and more is scheduled.

[Tom_Egan]

To: Philip Young
Re: Your 11/24 post about Bethpage having three courses which have hosted USGA events.

Hosting three (or more) USGA events on different courses at the same club has also occurred at Batusrol.  The first few championships were hosted on the Old Course (NIE) prior to 1922.  An Open and an Amateur were hosted on the Upper after that.  Many, many USGA events have been conducted on the Lower.

[Brian Laurent]

I bring guests, to Saucon Valley, and many say the THIRD course, Weyhill, is their favorite.

You can't go wrong with #2 or #3 at Saucon...IMO, both contain more interesting and challenging holes than the Old Course.  

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