[Rich Goodale]

Rich:

We are debating whether to have a road in play on our Road hole in Bandon.  There is a maintenace road that has to run right past that green -- we could make it a paved road or an old rutted two-track, and we could put it close to the green if we want.  I have asked Mr. Keiser if he would go for that but I think the decision will have to wait until he sees it on the ground.

Thanks, Tom.  I hope you succeeed in convincing the Keiser.  It would be great if Old Macdonald had a really old (not "Olde") feel to it.  Would it be possible to keep the course maintained to Golden Age standards too, or would that really be a Quirk Too Far?

[Jon Wiggett]

Rich:

We are debating whether to have a road in play on our Road hole in Bandon.  There is a maintenace road that has to run right past that green -- we could make it a paved road or an old rutted two-track, and we could put it close to the green if we want.  I have asked Mr. Keiser if he would go for that but I think the decision will have to wait until he sees it on the ground.

Thanks, Tom.  I hope you succeeed in convincing the Keiser.  It would be great if Old Macdonald had a really old (not "Olde") feel to it.  Would it be possible to keep the course maintained to Golden Age standards too, or would that really be a Quirk Too Far?

Tom,

are you replicating the Road Hole of today or how it was earlier. What was the road like before tarmac (asphalt) and I believe the banking at the back was different as well?

Rich,

what were Golden Age standards?

[Rich Goodale]

John

I'm assuming more rough and ready, slower greens speeds to allow more slope, more natural, less manicured.  Can't see it happening, but it would be interesting.

[Jim Nugent]

If you want to duplicate the Road Hole, and you can put a road there, why would you not do so?  

[TEPaul]

"George! Thanks for posting, but how did Raynor's name get on that drawing???"

BillB:

On second thought, that's a very good quesiton. George is a pretty good architectural drawer and has done a number of Macdonald/Raynor drawings himself, I believe.

George:

Is that particular drawing of Hackensack posted above yours or Raynor/Bank's? It would seem you must have typed the wording onto that drawing above, right? I can't imagine that Raynor or Banks would have.

To my knowledge Raynor never put anything on a drawing calling it a "concept" drawing, did he? I thought that was just a term that some of us have come to use for some of his drawings such as that blueprint for The Creek that was found in Flynn's inventory and that Flynn apparently got from The Creek Club itself when he came in there to do some work on a few holes a few years after the course opened.

On that Raynor Creek blueprint we call the Raynor "concept" drawing obviously some of the most interesting notations are those pencil drawings on a few holes on it. The question, of course, is who put them on there?

My bet is since they almost exactly match the individual hole redesign drawing Flynn did for the 3rd hole they are probably Flynn's pencil mark notations.

[Rich Goodale]

If you want to duplicate the Road Hole, and you can put a road there, why would you not do so?  

Jim

My guesses would include:  cost; golfers aren't used to playing chip shots off of roads; developers/owners don't want public pathways on their golf courses; architects are afraid that it might be the wedge that gets Barney into the design business; etc.

Rich

[Robert Emmons]

Huntington C C's current 7th is a Devereux Emmet from 1922

[wsmorrison]

Ron Forse and Jim Nagle both highly regard Robert White's Road Hole design at North Shore CC on Long Island.

[BCrosby]

Having played a number of Raynor/MacD Road Holes, I have been disappointed in almost all of them.

Not so much because they are not good holes. Many are.

The disappointment comes from using a bunker as a stand-in for an actual road. A back bunker does not replicate in any meaningful way the terror of the approach shot to the real thing. They don't look, feel or play like a "Road Hole". Which, logically enough, needs to have a thing called a "road".

(Which is why I actually prefer accidental Road Holes formed by misplaced cart paths.)

I hope Tom Doak is able to find a road to use on his new hole at Bandon. It is not just a good idea. I think it is critical to getting the hole to play the way a Road Hole ought to play.

Bob    

[George_Bahto]

I typed in the wording on my Hackensack for location and ID purposes only

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

George,

The style of the drawing of Hackensack looks very much like the drawing for Fairyland (now Lookout Mountain) dated Nov. 13, 1925 and, as you know, reads

Course desgined by
Seth J. Raynor
Charles H. Banks


Sure sounds like Raynor considered him a partner at that point. Were these drawings done by Banks or Raynor? With S.J. on the road so much, I wouldn't be surprised if Charlie was back in the office.

Anthony

P.S. Rocco Nocco lives!

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

George,

The style of the drawing of Hackensack looks very much like the drawing for Fairyland (now Lookout Mountain) dated Nov. 13, 1925 and, as you know, reads

Course desgined by
Seth J. Raynor
Charles H. Banks


Sure sounds like Raynor considered him a partner at that point. Were these drawings done by Banks or Raynor? With S.J. on the road so much, I wouldn't be surprised if Charlie was back in the office.

Anthony

P.S. Rocco Nocco lives!

[George_Bahto]

My use of “concept drawing” refers to what an architect proposed to build - these were often modified, of course. I enjoy comparing the “proposal” to what actually hit the ground.

One of my favorites was the plan SR and CB planned at Essex County East Course, in NJ - 140 some-odd bunkers were planned. The club ultimately only let Banks put in about half that number.

Tony speaks of the original Raynor drawing for Lookout Mtn - great set of fairway bunkers!!! Because of the overall cost of that job (nearly rivaling the Yale project) hardly any of the fairway bunkers (originally) ever hit the ground.

That’s why I have been collecting as many of the concept plans as I can find. Who ever the architect was, this is what he wanted built.

Tony: what you're talking about is 1924-1925. They were up to their butts in work - hands-on guys not wanting a lot of courses going on at once but they had close to 30 courses in the works, from Hawaii to Long Island and from Blue Mound in WI down to Yeamans Hall in SC.

Not exactly what they wanted to be doing.

Can you imagine traveling from NY to Hawaii in 1925?


The drawing of Hackensack above is my version of their drawing (that portion enlarged - why it looks a bit crude).

[TEPaul]

"The drawing of Hackensack above is my version of their drawing."

George:

Thanks for that explanation. Where is their version of the drawing for Hackensack?

[Gary Slatter]

IMHO there is only one real Road Hole (17) and to fabricate another is meaningless.  I consider the Raod Hole to be a challenge that only works right where it is.  Yesterday, temperature around 50, little wind, I played the hole with my wife and two University of St Andrews golf team members (lads). All of us hit heroic drives over "sheds", all found the fairway.   My wife had 212 yards to the pin which was back left, close behind Road Hole Bunker.  Her shot was to play pin high left of the green.  She plays it as a par 5.  
My second was from the right side, 175 yards to the front of the green - perfect high 4 iron left 15 foot putt (ball landed short, ran up into middle of the green).  Missed the putt but very happy to have my par!

But what makes this hole great was the two college players challenges.  Both had around 150 yards but could not go for the pin (one did, into the bunker, IF he had cleared the bunker my guess is he would have run across the road). One played left of the green and successfully putted from off the green to 3 feet.  Neither of the players had a safe second shot into the right or middle of the green.

First time playing from mats off the fairway - interesting and I think easier for most players.  Next year the Links will use mats on all of their courses during the winter months.

The shot from the road back to the green is easier now, during the summer the strip of grass between the road and the green was long and impossible to putt your ball through. Now it's short and more playable, more options.

[RJ_Daley]

http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&hl=en&q=kansas+city&f=q&ll=43.071502,-88.039917&spn=0.00118,0.004174&t=k&z=18&om=0

George mentions Blue Mound CC 5th has a pretty good Road hole.  It has the road hole front bunker that could be shorter shaved mowing and a little deeper and more gathering to really be a cracker.  It also has both a bunker standing in for the road, and a cart path behind that.  The angle off the tee is close to over the hotel, and the length is about right.  It could just use a bit more shining up on the approach particularly to the left side of the RHB.

With slight tweaking, it may be the best candidate for really doing exact restoration to make it highly accurate.

What do you think of it as a candidate for further tweaking, George?

[George_Bahto]

TEP: it was published in an article written by Banks - he had about 5 course drawings in the article, including the Oneck Course at Westhampton)

[George_Bahto]

So to reiterate my question, I’m wondering why so few good versions of this great hole have not been built    (YET).


The intriguing features:


*   Blind to semi-blind tee-shot to a narrow fairway with difficult problems on the right (OB, ST Andrews) and problems on the left.

*   The approach guarded by such an intimidating front bunker it forces many players to lay up front right.

*   A green that is not the least friendly to an approach shot

*   The shallow green, road and wall beyond


Have architects been apprehensive about building a hole with all these nasty features?

Have architects been afraid of being criticized for not building a good version of this great hole?

Have clubs been afraid to put such a severe hole on their course unless it has been watered down (pot bunker suddenly becoming a large bunker off to the side, etc)? (they all want to go over and play the Road hole - why not one on their home course?)


OT: how about Paula Creamer’s play this week - burning up that RTJ course

OT: actually, just: how about Paula Creamer!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Bob,

There terror the road brings is nothing, in my mind, to the fear I felt staring at, and then hitting, the railway shed. Any real Road Hole should have a large wooden structure up and to the right of the tees, nevermind water, roads or beaches.

Anthony

[Jim_Kennedy]

George,
Perhaps few get built because a good one would be too easily recognized ?

I know ours (by the way, your fairway fix has really worked out well) has been slandered by time, and at its best it probably wouldn't rank highly in their portfolio, but it's still either the most loved or hated hole of the nine.    
 

[BCrosby]

Bob,

There terror the road brings is nothing, in my mind, to the fear I felt staring at, and then hitting, the railway shed. Any real Road Hole should have a large wooden structure up and to the right of the tees, nevermind water, roads or beaches.

Anthony -

The train barn/hotel thing is indeed a terror. But I am working on the assumption that we aren't going to build (or find) that sort of thing on a modern course. Which is not to suggest that I wouldn't like to have one on a modern version.

There are, however, lots of roads that could be used. Even cart paths. So in replicating the Road Hole, I'll take what I can get.

My larger point is that using a bunker in lieu of a road is a non-starter. You are elevating form over substance. Which helps explain why so many of the US replicas are so forgettable.  

Bottom line is that The Road Hole represents a combination of physical features that are going to be very, very hard to replicate in any meaningful way.

Bob

[Kalen Braley]

The road hole is one of the most fascinating holes I've ever seen in terms of layout/routing.  Was it really just dumb luck of sorts that this hole has become so famous?  Because to me it sort of looks like they ran out of room and jammed it in where they could.

Or is it the prepsoterous nature of the hole that has made it famous, blind shot over a hotel of all things?  Isn't this site one that regulary crucifies others courses for having shots you have to hit over houses.  To further complicate the matter a gathering bunker was placed right in front of the green. And then to have the road literally right next to the green.  Its almost like they were taking bets on how preposterous one could make the hole and yet have it remain somewhat playable.

I guess what I'm really trying to say is, the sum does seem to be greater than the parts, but I'm not to this day sure what to think about the hole.  Probably in large part because if someone built something like this today with the hotel and the road its hard to see it getting anything but critical remarks.

[George_Bahto]

Bob: the drive, to me, is a feature to easy to replicate - at National it is over a modest hill and it serves the purpose nicely - I have no problem with that feature. There is all sorts of rough, blind to the player, over the hill but setting your target line off the tee is not comfortable.

Also, the road feature is easily resolve as many have suggested.

I think what intrigues me the most are compounding problems in the original landing zone and that fearsome approach ..... capturing that on existing terrain seems to be the problem.

I would NOT want to see an exact (manufactured) replication of 17-St Andrews - to me that would be obscene bordering on sacrilegious.
 
Would someone post the drawing from the yardage book - especially the green itself - I can’t seem to find my copy right now.

Jim Kennedy: that version you have on the Hotchkiss course is sort of a one-of-a-kind and with the water coming off the hill to the right, there must have been a lot of problems with the greensite from the git-go.
So when are we going to “fix” it - hah)

[Jim_Kennedy]

George,
Someday, hopefully.....

Here's the stuff:

[BCrosby]

George -

I'm not so sure the swap of sand for road can be a resolution.

At the heart of the terror of the approach to the 17th at TOC is that misses right involve playing off a surface that exists nowhere else on the course or, indeed, almost anywhere else in golf. I don't have that shot and no one else does either.

It would be less scary if long right was o.b. or water.

That's a big part of what is so special about the hole.

Putting a bunker there doesn't mean you have a bad hole necessarily. But it means you have removed one of two of the key features that make the Road Hole the Road Hole.

It's sometimes helpful to look at Raynor Roads through the eyes of other players who are not members of our little treehouse.

A couple of years ago I was playing the Road Hole at Yeamans with a friend. I tried to explain to him why it was called a Road. He laughed. He had a point.

Bob

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