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Patrick Kiser

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Re:An architect named Arthur Vernon Macan
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2007, 01:50:50 PM »
Interesting.  I agree the green seems "misplaced" now on the 9th.  I'm assuming it's still the original green because it also has an unusual amount of movement compared to many of the other greens.  I wonder if that could be an original Macan design that was kept intact.  It very much has the false fronting that seems to be a Macan trademark from what I'm reading here.

It's interesting to read as well that Muir Graves "redesigned" another Macan course in Idaho by the name of Hillcrest Country Club.  I wonder if anyone on this forum has any information about that course.


Patrick K. -

The biggest (and worst) change to the course was on the 9th hole, which I think is now the weakest hole on the course in GCA terms. The 9th tee was much further forward and the hole used to play as a 90-degree dogleg right up to where the practice putting green now is located.


DT    
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Bob Jenkins

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Re:An architect named Arthur Vernon Macan
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2007, 07:37:37 PM »

Jeff,

Agree with you completely regarding Richmond. The land was dead flat and Macan must have been looking for some feature for the course and that was greens that are extremely difficult to hit and hold. I have never been to Pinehurst but the descriptions of the greens seem similar to those about Richmond. There are probably 10 other courses in the Vancouver area that would be more interesting and challenging than Richmond.

Not far away is a public course called Mayfair Lakes which was built on flat farmland. I forget who designed Mayfair (Furber?) but it is certainly more interesting than Richmond, except for having too many forced carries over the water. Lots of wildly undulating greens, very wide open and very few trees compared to Richmond. I enjoy it more.

Shaughnessy, which is along with Capilano are the two best courses around here, has bought land less than a mile from Mayfair in anticipation of losing their current course at the expiry of their lease. The First Nations band that controls the land have made it clear the lease on the present site will not be renewed. The new site is an executive length course and some adjacent land, but like the other two courses described above, on the dead flat terrain of a river delta. It will be interesting to see who Shaughnessy eventually hires to make something out of nothing. That would give you a definite challenge, Jeff.

Bob Jenkins

Jeff_Mingay

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Re:An architect named Arthur Vernon Macan
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2007, 09:09:25 PM »
Bob,

I'm pretty sure Shaughnessy has already engaged Doug Carrick to prepare a plan for the new course, when the club is forced to move.

I'll tell you what though, if I was asked to do same, I'd propose a 'Vernon Macan style' golf course for the newest (third) version of Shaughnessy; in light of the fact that so much of his original work is gone - lost to green committees, subsequent designers, and the affects of time. But more so, Macan's philosophies and style are very releveant today.  

Wouldn't that be a cool project to consider? I think so.

Moreover, this approach would pretty much ensure the newest Shaughnessy (coming soon) will be unique; 'cause Vernon Macan's golf architecture was/is unique.
jeffmingay.com

Bob Jenkins

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Re:An architect named Arthur Vernon Macan
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2007, 10:09:28 PM »

Jeff,

If the new Shaugnessy was like Richmond, I cannot believe the current Shaughnessy membership would follow out to that location. It is out of the city and the rather well-healed membership will find it difficult to go out to Richmond in the first place, let alone to a so-so course. To get them out there, it is going to have to be very special.

As I mentioned on another thread a few days ago, Doug Carrick has been hired to design the new nine at Predator Ridge and apparently make changes to the Peregrine nine.  I have never seen a Carrick course. Is that something I, as a member of Predator, should be looking forward to?

Still hoping to catch you at Sagebrush one of these days!

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:An architect named Arthur Vernon Macan
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2007, 12:09:26 AM »
Pat,

More than just false fronts, the greens at Richmond have false edges everywhere, which makes them even more challenging and variable.

Jeff,

I agree that Richmond suffers from some pretty lackluster topography, not to mention an akward shaped parcel of land. Way to many parallel holes, and little fairway contouring. However, if the budget you mentioned is correct, not much else Macan could do but create some exciting greens.

TK

Paul Stephenson

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Re:An architect named Arthur Vernon Macan
« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2007, 09:39:59 AM »
If anyone is interested.

The link below leads to Macan's Officiers' Declaration Paper.  This is what he signed on Jan 1 1916 when he enlisted to go overseas in The First World War.  What's interesting is that although he had been designing golf courses since 1913 he lists his occupation as barrister.  I wonder if he saw himself as an amatuer architect?

http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc010/475090a.gif

Macan lost his foot at Vimy Ridge in April 1917 while serving with the 7th Battalion, CEF.  Ironically, Stanley Thompson, serving in the Canadian Field Artillery, was mentioned in dispatches of the very same battle.

I'm still looking for documentation regarding his injury.  I'll post it when it's found.

My other passion is WWI research.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:An architect named Arthur Vernon Macan
« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2007, 04:27:17 PM »
Paul,

Thanks for posting the link. Amazing stuff.  

You know, I put '2-and-2 together' a few years ago as well, realizing Stanley Thompson was present at the very same battle, at Vimy Ridge, where Macan lost his leg.

Small world.

I don't think Macan 'had been designing golf courses' since 1913. I mean, he did layout Colwood that year, and I think he may have done a 9-hole course at Qualicum Beach by that time too, but he certainly wasn't a 'full-time' golf course designer in 1916.

He was a barrister who happened to layout two courses in B.C., in his spare time!
jeffmingay.com

Neal_Meagher

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Re:An architect named Arthur Vernon Macan
« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2007, 05:44:43 PM »
Whilst still with the most beloved and simultaneously reviled firm herein, Robert Muir Graves, I had the pleasure of working as the lead designer with the folks at Richmond CC in 1991 on a renovation of the course.

As everyone here has stated, the greens are just fantastic and we didn't feel any need to seriously mess about with them.  They do resemble upside-down turtles in many places and all we sought to do was to employ slightly more interesting bunkering that would work with those greens.  

A very big part of the project was also to work with the seriously over-treed property.  Since it is dead flat and nearby to the Fraser River, the original builders filled the place with parallel lines of trees, mostly poplars and evergreens that were literally choking the fairways.  I haven't been there in quite some time so I don't know if they have done any more work with the trees.

I believe they are still employing Damian Pascuzzo as their consulting architect.
The purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that. - David Mamet

www.nealmeaghergolf.com

Craig Van Egmond

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Re:An architect named Arthur Vernon Macan
« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2007, 06:00:21 PM »
Neal,

     Not to sidetrack away from ole Vernon, but as someone who has played and enjoyed a number of Mr. Graves courses in the PNW I was wondering if you had the opportunity to work on any of them?  Hopefully it wasn't the Trails nine at Port Ludlow. :)

     I did have the pleasure of playing Overlake Country Club in WA a number of times and it had a wonderful set of greens. It is attributed to Vernon Macan and I believe Mr. Graves may have done some work there also.

« Last Edit: October 15, 2007, 06:04:06 PM by Craig Edgmand »

Neal_Meagher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:An architect named Arthur Vernon Macan
« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2007, 06:10:33 PM »
Craig,

Sidetracking doesn't bother me one bit, it's how I live my life.

And no, I didn't work on the Trails 9 at Port Ludlow, although I did walk it in its rough state after clearing and man, what a tough site.  Another associate at the time worked with RMG on that one.  

As for Overlake, yes, the firm did much work there as their consulting architect for a while but I'm uncertain how much was implemented.  Other than working on 27 holes at the Rogue Valley CC in Medford, most of my involvement in that firm seemed to be in California.

Now, back to Vernon.............
The purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that. - David Mamet

www.nealmeaghergolf.com

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:An architect named Arthur Vernon Macan
« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2007, 06:14:46 PM »

Thanks.

The Trails 9 is/was a brutal site... an absolute ball eating monster. Poor guy that had to work on that.

Bob Jenkins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:An architect named Arthur Vernon Macan
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2007, 07:46:16 PM »
Neal,

It has been a few years since I have been out at Richmond but I too was astounded with the rows of trees, as if they had been lined up in a nursery and did not want to get out of line. Not only were they in line but each hole seemed to be lined with one type of tree, poplar, a Chinese maple, fir or whatever. It was quite bizarre. Up in this part of the world I think people are so hung up on tress they want to put them everywhere.

Lots of our courses get overgrown in that way. Do most courses not have some type of program to ensure they are not overgrown, at least to keep light on areas that could become bog if they do not see enough sunlight? I am a member at Point Grey which is known for its trees and we are currently undergoing extensive renos under Graham Cooke and Wayne Carlton including tree removal and it is already showing signs of improvement.

Jay Flemma

Re:An architect named Arthur Vernon Macan
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2007, 08:20:06 PM »
WOw, this is amazing.  great job guys.  I'm on the road to Black Mesa, but I'll write more tonight.  In the meantime, I did get a paragraph or two in about him in a book review on my website.  I'll do more soon.

Scott Stambaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:An architect named Arthur Vernon Macan
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2007, 09:05:48 PM »
A good piece on A.V. Macan can be found in the PNGA's history book- "Championships and Friendships- The First 100 Years of the PNGA" by Jeff Shelley and Michael Riste.  It is one of the best regional golf association history books I have seen.

As someone mentioned earlier, your best source of information can be obtained from Michael Riste who is a curator at the BC Golf Museum.  I spoke with him last year about Macan's work at Overlake, he is extremely knowledgable on the subject.

Last year, I also had the good fortune of meeting the gentleman who was hired by Macan to build the greens at Overlake back in the 50's.  He had a memory like he built the course yesterday, not 55 years ago.  The interesting thing he told me was Macan sculpted minature versions of the greens out of a plaster-of-paris material and gave them to the shaper to go build.  He specifically asked me "I remember building that 7th green.  Is that one still the same?"

For those of you who have played Overlake, the 7th green is probably one of the most interesting greens on the course and most likely wouldn't be built today.  Anyway, I thought it was interesting he remembered this.

Scott


Tommy_Naccarato

Re:An architect named Arthur Vernon Macan
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2007, 09:37:46 PM »
Jay, your assessment of Macan is pretty much as uninformed as your opinion that the 17th at Yale is a Biarritz-style green. No offense here, but I think you should start over on your treatise.

To even suggest that Vernon Macan was schooled in Max Behr's theories, well, I've read most every publication Max has ever written and never once did I see him even mention the name Macan, and recently after playing my fourth Macan course I'm convinced now more then ever it is an entirely different study of golf architecture, nor representative of anything I've ever seen from Behr other then maybe the discussion of width which was the norm for every golf course designer during those days.

His shaping, almost rudimentary, but solidly placed to control water flow. Most of it was not just some odd shapes, yet most of it works. His hazards were placed not to entice--such as Behr's ingenious lines of charm, more as just another line of play to the hole. Macan's hazards were usually way out of the way or placed in a fashion not to penalize the weaker player, whereas Max's magnificently shaping looked as if it had been part of the original landscape and the naturally decorated and well placed hazards were just as much a part of the choice to be or not to be--as a choice of challenging the hazard. To actually lure the golfer.

It's a HUGE difference.

I suggest you seek out a few Macan courses for yourself. They are enjoyable places, although some of them obsoleted thanks to misguided green committees. I recently had the opportunity to play Fircrest in Tacoma, and honestly, if I had chosen to move to Tacoma--as the opportunity existed, I would more then likely have looked into joining Fircrest, I liked it that much. But it's in dire need of a lot of work.

You also have to be able to understand that much of this work your going to be looking at has been half-ass altered by an out of control green committee running amuck.

As far as the Herring Bone drainage, the highly-banked 1st fairway had recently had Herring Bone added to it. This is probably due to the course being built in 1924, before Macan came up with the idea, as well as the lack of suitable low area which to take it. (such as a pond or creek bed in the immediate vicinity. A routing error? No way! Especially as I like routings that let you see the course as you drive in, such as H. Chandler Egan's Tualatin CC and many others. Dangerous? Yes, but charming in the country club way of life.)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2007, 09:39:58 PM by Tommy Naccarato »

Jay Flemma

Re:An architect named Arthur Vernon Macan
« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2007, 10:41:36 PM »
Jay, your assessment of Macan is pretty much as uninformed as your opinion that the 17th at Yale is a Biarritz-style green. No offense here, but I think you should start over on your treatise.

To even suggest that Vernon Macan was schooled in Max Behr's theories, well, I've read most every publication Max has ever written and never once did I see him even mention the name Macan, and recently after playing my fourth Macan course I'm convinced now more then ever it is an entirely different study of golf architecture, nor representative of anything I've ever seen from Behr other then maybe the discussion of width which was the norm for every golf course designer during those days.

His shaping, almost rudimentary, but solidly placed to control water flow. Most of it was not just some odd shapes, yet most of it works. His hazards were placed not to entice--such as Behr's ingenious lines of charm, more as just another line of play to the hole. Macan's hazards were usually way out of the way or placed in a fashion not to penalize the weaker player, whereas Max's magnificently shaping looked as if it had been part of the original landscape and the naturally decorated and well placed hazards were just as much a part of the choice to be or not to be--as a choice of challenging the hazard. To actually lure the golfer.

It's a HUGE difference.

I suggest you seek out a few Macan courses for yourself. They are enjoyable places, although some of them obsoleted thanks to misguided green committees. I recently had the opportunity to play Fircrest in Tacoma, and honestly, if I had chosen to move to Tacoma--as the opportunity existed, I would more then likely have looked into joining Fircrest, I liked it that much. But it's in dire need of a lot of work.

You also have to be able to understand that much of this work your going to be looking at has been half-ass altered by an out of control green committee running amuck.

As far as the Herring Bone drainage, the highly-banked 1st fairway had recently had Herring Bone added to it. This is probably due to the course being built in 1924, before Macan came up with the idea, as well as the lack of suitable low area which to take it. (such as a pond or creek bed in the immediate vicinity. A routing error? No way! Especially as I like routings that let you see the course as you drive in, such as H. Chandler Egan's Tualatin CC and many others. Dangerous? Yes, but charming in the country club way of life.)

What the hell are you talking about?  I never said 17 was a biarritz!  Your comment as is uninformed as you.  I don't care how much you think you know about Behr.  I spoke to both Jeff Shelley and Mingay and they agree, so go hang out on someone else's thread who cares.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2007, 10:47:08 PM by Jay Flemma »

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:An architect named Arthur Vernon Macan
« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2007, 10:49:39 PM »
"go to hell" was more fun......almost Hollywood wit.....
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:An architect named Arthur Vernon Macan
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2007, 11:06:59 PM »
Quote
What the hell are you talking about?  I never said 17 was a biarritz!  Your comment as is uninformed as you.  I don't care how much you think you know about Behr.  I spoke to both Jeff Shelley and Mingay and they agree, so go hang out on someone else's thread who cares.

Jay, This is verbatim from your website--a quote by you and just to show you I remember what I'm talking about:

Interesting character filled greens? Another huge check. There is not a single throw away hole shape and there is not a single throw away green either. Each green is a complicated jigsaw puzzle. Numbers 9 and 17 (biarritzes) and 10 (think 16 at Black Mesa) stand out in a murderer’s row of terrific greens. An all star line-up.

I've seen your previous descriptions of the Line of Charm. Let me know if you need Max Behr's actual description of them. You might gain a better viewpoint of the term.

As far as hanging out on this thread, it's a discussion group, and were discussing golf architecture; and as Ran's description for the site reads: A free access board for the discussion of golf course architecture related matters.

With that, I'll freely post here that I disagree with your treatise. Simple as that. Don't take it offensively Jay. It's just my free opinion.

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:An architect named Arthur Vernon Macan
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2007, 11:14:52 PM »
Jay, in all honesty, there aren't many (IF ANY) that know Behr better than TN, courses or otherwise.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Jay Flemma

Re:An architect named Arthur Vernon Macan
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2007, 11:18:27 PM »
I'll take Mingay and Shelley over Tommy thanks.

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:An architect named Arthur Vernon Macan
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2007, 11:35:21 PM »
  I see a particular Behr course at least 2 times a month and will be playing said course next week (for a fourth time, I live 10 mins from it). I've seen 2 others and hopefully will be playing the first soon. Considering that there aren't many and TN has seen them ALL, as well as most of their club records, that include photo's from their early days, and since ALL his courses are in TN's (and my) back yard, believe me when I tell you, there ARE NOT ANY that know better. I'm not trying to make this a contest, and I hope to not come across as a snot, but TN knows his stuff about this.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2007, 11:39:56 PM by David Stamm »
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:An architect named Arthur Vernon Macan
« Reply #46 on: October 16, 2007, 12:05:59 AM »
David,
 I appreciate the compliment, but I still do swear by the statement that it is better to be a student then an authority. I could probaby learn just as much from guys like you, Jon Spaulding, Peter Pallota, Adam Collins, Kyle Harris, Sean Tully, Tom MacWood, TE Paul and others, knowing you too--all live with the same starving knowledge as myself. It needs to be fed constantly!

Jay, You can think and say what you want about me, but I can tell you each and everyone of those names I mention above have far more knowledge and intellect, and at the very least, have words that are much more worth reading then ours. You should maybe stop typing and start reading, just as I have. Who knows, you might learn something. (as I have)

And as far as Jeff Mingay is concerned, he and I share much of the same views on architecture. Whether they differ or not is should be something you should want to learn from to form your own opinion, forgoing the personalities, only after you see the course, instead ofwriting about what you haven't seen.

Noel Freeman

Re:An architect named Arthur Vernon Macan
« Reply #47 on: October 16, 2007, 09:49:46 AM »
Jay, your assessment of Macan is pretty much as uninformed as your opinion that the 17th at Yale is a Biarritz-style green. No offense here, but I think you should start over on your treatise.


Tommy- Dr. Childs made a 2 for net 1 when we played our opening day tournament on #17.  I maintain he eagled the biarritz but he is steadfast that it is the double plateau!.. After all I'm the one who watched it roll up the back plateau into the cup..trickled actually into it..  I am so pigheaded that you have now set me straight.. I no longer see biarritzes when they are truly double plateaus.. Thank  you, I feel like I've taken the first step on a 12 step program!  Now if I only I can get that foul peasant Childs to really understand Raynor.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2007, 10:07:31 AM by Tuco Ramirez »

Jay Flemma

Re:An architect named Arthur Vernon Macan
« Reply #48 on: October 16, 2007, 11:13:32 AM »
I thought we had no more fake names on this site????  Or is it no fake names except for tommy frriends.

Hey Freeman...we named the cat Tuco.  Meow...pussycat!

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:An architect named Arthur Vernon Macan
« Reply #49 on: October 16, 2007, 11:40:57 AM »
Jay,
When this site was at it's peak form, some of the best, most fun posts were done in the spirit of good humor. Many of these were pseudo posts.

And who am I to argue with Tuco? It's like do I want to lose a freeking hand or something, or worse to be left dying on the side of some dusty trail with my rotting carcass stinking up the place? ? ? ?

No, your right, everyone does have top post under their own name with the exception of those in the golf business who need anonymity, or those who are some what in the public eye that need it. Tuco isn't one of these, but he does have Ran's permission, so even Ran answers to a higher authority! Unless he wants to be Tuco's next victim...

Enjoy the site Jay. Read the site too. You would be surprised how much information and knowledge you can attain from it. I know this from my own experiences.


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