Variety Around the Greens at Rustic Canyon

« **Reply #25 on:** October 11, 2007, 01:32:35 PM »

Stipulating that Matt's judgement of those shots as making the putter a no-brainer choice...

Doesn't this forum generally disparage any one-dimensional course as compared to courses which offer choices? It sure sounds like his round at Rustic was the short-game equivalent of a course offering only aerial target-golf options on shot after shot or narrow fairways where the only "option" is to hit it straight to keep it in the short grass off the tee.

I've certainly seen tightly-mown green surrounds where playing anything but a putter (or perhaps a 6-iron runner) would have been the logical equivalent of playing a 350-yard hole wedge/driver instead of driver/wedge. The fact that there is another shot conceivable does not always imply that there are meaningful options.

P.S. That said, it would take me a lot longer to get bored of 100+ foot putts from the fringe on the pictured contours than of almost any other repeated shot I can think of. To me it looks like lots of fun, albeit potentially lacking in variety.

« **Reply #26 on:** October 11, 2007, 01:37:37 PM »

As some one who has played Rustic quite a bit I would like to post my thoughts here. Is this not what we all want here?? you lay in the fairway 30 yards from the hole. You can putt it, chip it, bunt it with 3 wood. You have options you just chose to putt all of them. Would you have rather been in the bunker 9 times with no options?? or 5 inch rough with no options? I think there is plenty of varity there. From long left on one to a front pin from my recolection it is more then a moderate hill.. Also on 14 from back right to front pin to me seems more then a little left to right. Seems to me like you left your self in the only spots on the greens where this would happen, if you would have missed on the other side of the greens you would have had differeent shots.

« **Reply #27 on:** October 11, 2007, 01:43:07 PM »

Brian:

As pertains to Rustic, I too think that if Matt goes back, he'll see the variety. This was just one round, and luck of the draw (or fade), so to speak.

But do you get the point how this lack of variety could occur elsewhere? See my first post in this thread (reply #11) for explanation...

TH

« **Reply #28 on:** October 11, 2007, 02:00:01 PM »

I can see where one round you could get into repition, but still long left on 1 for me is not a given putt, I have chipped from there. same goes for 14 long right. I think the varity is there he may have just gotten lucky on the right holes. There are plenty of places like you talk where you can go over or around the bunkers or between humps and hollows he did not hit any of those places. I mean come on throught the swale on 6, that is an easy boring putt? I just saw this as well 60 feet from right fringe on 17?? there is not much room over there not really like a collections area like all the others mentions, seems to me this was a barly missed green and would of happend on any course, 10 feet further right and he is in the crap? I dont know I am fond of the course and it was my home for 1 year and I guess I just miss it so I have to defend it...

« **Reply #29 on:** October 11, 2007, 02:14:24 PM »

Brian:

Playing the devil's advocate here as I am with you, I see no lack of variety at RC specifically.... but I can understand Matt's point that he seemed to face the same shot over and over: a putt from off the green. Perhaps a little of that just goes a long way?

TH

« **Reply #30 on:** October 11, 2007, 02:24:31 PM »

No problem I understand but a Putt is not a Putt. 40 feet just off the fringe up hill is different from 100 feet up over a ridge to a pin on the front of the green where if you go to far you could end up in the rough where the first 50+ feet is through the fairway. Or a putt through a swale 5 feet deep. I guess a putt is a putt and I will just let it go now... How boring

« **Reply #31 on:** October 11, 2007, 02:31:28 PM »

Brian:

I get that all putts aren't the same - obviously. But it is the same club, and in a perfect world of variety in golf, you wouldn't use the same club (or for those who do subscribe to the one club theory, the same trajectory) for all shots from off the green surface.

That, I believe, is the point.

TH

« **Reply #32 on:** October 11, 2007, 02:44:14 PM »

As I said before the putter was his choice. I have chipped from basiclly all the spots where he said putter was the only option... The options are there he just choose to take the boring route and use his putter on all of them.

« **Reply #33 on:** October 11, 2007, 02:48:23 PM »

If I remember correctly, Stevinson Ranch also has these same aprons or collars that extend out 10-20 yards away from the green.

At first they seemed a little odd and I wasn't sure what to do on them, whether to chip it or putt it. I'm sure for anyone who is not used to seeing these it can be a little dis-oreinting. The biggest dilemma I have with these tightly mown areas is that it requires such precise ball striking to chip it effectivly, that sometimes its better just to putt it.

« **Reply #34 on:** October 11, 2007, 02:53:15 PM »

Brian,

Have you ever chipped from 60 feet when you're on the green, with nothing between you and the hole?

...didn't think so.

Why not? Probably because from a surface mowed to 1/8", putting is invariably the best way to get close to the hole.

Nothing changes if you define that 1/8" grass as fairway rather than green. You can define it as a water hazard if you want to! I'll still putt it for the same reason that you choose your putter when you're on the green.

I don't think it's my responsibility to create variety if the course doesn't offer it already. I think my responsibility as a golfer is to play the course in the fewest number of strokes possible.

« **Reply #35 on:** October 11, 2007, 03:05:34 PM »

Matt

Sounds like you are a good player and left yourself in the best locations to score well.

If you want more challenge, play as my partner in an alternate shot game!!!

« **Reply #36 on:** October 11, 2007, 03:19:54 PM »

Sure it does. It does change when you have to putt through a swale 5 feet deep that is not perfectly mowed green. I have chipped many a balls from there.

You are right it is your job to dictate how you chose to navigate the 40 yard putt and get down in the lowest amout of strokes. The course can give YOU the option which you may feel is the correct option but not be the same option that I choose. I may not feel comfortable putting from that far off the green. All I meant was YOU choose to putt all of those and just because of this it does not mean there is no variety around the greens.

« **Reply #37 on:** October 11, 2007, 03:20:32 PM »

Ha, I wouldn't give myself that much credit...

I should say that we were playing skins for $1 a hole on the back nine. With stakes like that, I couldn't afford to try anything crazy.

« **Reply #38 on:** October 11, 2007, 03:22:19 PM »

Quote from: Michael Dugger on October 11, 2007, 03:05:34 PM

Matt

Sounds like you are a good player and left yourself in the best locations to score well.

If you want more challenge, play as my partner in an alternate shot game!!!

Funny stuff Michael!

« **Reply #39 on:** October 11, 2007, 03:31:29 PM »

The aprons at RC are such that, to me, the apron+green = one large green. Maybe the aprons stimp at 7 while the greens stimp at 9 (I'm probably off in my numbers). If the aprons were cut higher or a different type of grass, anything other than a putter might be a viable option (at least for me).

« **Reply #40 on:** October 11, 2007, 03:36:43 PM »

AS:

I'm not sure I'd want to change anything about the mowing patterns or grass at RC, or any course that plays firm and fast, really. Man that is what golf is all about to me... the most fun way to play. Screaming fast fairways and green surrounds are to me very cool.

My point though remains that if that is ALL there is, then you get too much repetition and yes, boring golf. You need to have some obstacles in the way so that even though putter is the highest percentage play, to use it would mean to go away from the hole... not an appetizing thought... so you are either tempted or forced to do something other than roll it along the ground.

Again, I think RC has such things and Matt got lucky to miss them. But if a course does not, then it is lacking variety, and that isn't a good thing.

TH

« **Reply #41 on:** October 11, 2007, 03:49:37 PM »

Quote from: Tom Huckaby on October 11, 2007, 03:36:43 PM

AS:

I'm not sure I'd want to change anything about the mowing patterns or grass at RC, or any course that plays firm and fast, really. Man that is what golf is all about to me... the most fun way to play. Screaming fast fairways and green surrounds are to me very cool.

My point though remains that if that is ALL there is, then you get too much repetition and yes, boring golf. You need to have some obstacles in the way so that even though putter is the highest percentage play, to use it would mean to go away from the hole... not an appetizing thought... so you are either tempted or forced to do something other than roll it along the ground.

Again, I think RC has such things and Matt got lucky to miss them. But if a course does not, then it is lacking variety, and that isn't a good thing.

TH

I don't think I would want to change the grass or mowing either. Just wanted to reinforce the point that, as it is, putting is for me 99% of the time the best play from its (Large) aprons.

« **Reply #42 on:** October 11, 2007, 03:58:51 PM »

I think Matt got lucky as well...

But really How did you like it other then the boring 100 foot putts?

« **Reply #43 on:** October 11, 2007, 03:59:35 PM »

AS: as it is the best play for damn near everyone, including a GREAT golfer like Matt.

But you seemed to indicate a wish to change the mowing heights, thus my response. I'm happy to read I misconstrued that.

TH

« **Reply #44 on:** October 11, 2007, 04:04:50 PM »

There were some holes at Stevenson Ranch during the King Putter on which the aprons were Stimping 9 and the putting surfaces more like 8. That's an interesting surprise, at least for the first round until you get used to it.

« **Reply #45 on:** October 11, 2007, 04:06:22 PM »

Quote from: Brent Hutto on October 11, 2007, 04:04:50 PM

There were some holes at Stevenson Ranch during the King Putter on which the aprons were Stimping 9 and the putting surfaces more like 8. That's an interesting surprise, at least for the first round until you get used to it.

YES! That's one of the unique things about that course. Very tough to get used to, for sure.

TH

« **Reply #46 on:** October 11, 2007, 04:54:29 PM »

A couple of more questions - I will admit that the short grass does leave different options - putts with putter, putts with 3W or hybrid, or bump and run. The question is, on most American courses, what would it take design wise to make the bump and run the preferred shot, at least some of the time? AT TOC its the wind, deep bunkers and extreme firm and fast.

Knowing we don't get that here, it seems that if the turf is consistent, and slopes long and broad, the putter is the best option.

If the surrounding greens fringes are too rumply, and the green not too firm, avoiding the uncertainty of the rumples requires a wedge to land on the surface, just like rough would.

If we can't count of firm and fast, would rumples from five yards off the green and out, but smooth collars encourage hitting a mid iron to that flat part and running it out? Even if it did, it would effectively enlarge the green size, and still lead to more putting, just from the five yard misses, instead of the 15 yard misses.

Another point I wonder about - Pete Dye always talks about making golfers think about which side to miss. Does a green with so much short grass, while providing recovery options, really help set up any dilemma on the approach?

« **Reply #47 on:** October 11, 2007, 04:55:40 PM »

Quote from: Kalen Braley on October 11, 2007, 02:48:23 PM

If I remember correctly, Stevinson Ranch also has these same aprons or collars that extend out 10-20 yards away from the green.

At first they seemed a little odd and I wasn't sure what to do on them, whether to chip it or putt it. I'm sure for anyone who is not used to seeing these it can be a little dis-oreinting. The biggest dilemma I have with these tightly mown areas is that it requires such precise ball striking to chip it effectivly, that sometimes its better just to putt it.

I was saying this same thing a couple of hours ago Huck...it did take some getting used to on the couple of occasions I played SR...

« **Reply #48 on:** October 11, 2007, 11:52:51 PM »

Brian,

It took Bobby Jones a while to appreciate TOC, right?

Seriously, I can see that the golf course would become more interesting with repeated play. Since it was my first round, I wasn't aware of a lot of angles or strategies that would have been useful.

I also can't think of another course where four consecutive par-5's play in the same direction and similar yardage (5, 9, 10, 13).

On the other hand, I appreciated the width and the choices that width allowed. I appreciated the design of several greens: specifically, 2 (reminded me of Prairie Dunes), 8, 9, 11, 12, 14, 16 (that back edge is brilliant), and 18.

RC also has some of the most intriguing front pins I've seen; we played front pins on 6, 14, and 18 that were amazing.

My favorite holes were the big, sweeping ones: 2, 10, 11, 14, 16, and 17. I think my very favorite was 14.

As you can guess by those lists, I preferred the back nine significantly.

Overall, I liked the course. I don't love it yet, but I'm very aware that I'm missing some things about it and that I may (or may not) love it in the future.

« **Reply #49 on:** October 12, 2007, 12:24:45 PM »

Matt,

I think you very succicntly summarized the challanges ar RC:

No golfer is prepared to get the ball within 5 feet of the hole on his first go round, putting from deep in the fringes.

You had the SW shot taken away, and felt that the up and down game you had honed for years was removed with it.

You needed a new shot and couldn't formulate one quick enough.

One question; what did Lynn do?

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