[JC Jones]

I've played them both and to find fault is nit-picking.  Some holes are better than others.  At CD, IMHO the front nine is world class, over the top.  I was a little let down on the back but it has a collection of holes that are very good.  The 17th which has been discussed on this site is a very short par 4 which you either love or hate.  I would compare it to the 14th at Bandon Trails.

Cypress has some holes that are not world class in themselves but mend great with the course.  For discussion I would say #3, #4 and #10 are just OK.  

Thanks for the insight Joel.  Im not trying to find fault, im just trying to foster discussion about 2 world class golf courses from the same designer.  Often times we discuss world class golf courses from different designers, i found this to be a great opportunity to at least start with a common denominator.

I loved 17 at CD.  You can literally hit 5 different clubs off that tee.

[Mike Wagner]

This cracks me up.  I haven't playe CD, but I've played CP 4 times.  I too have forgotten all those "average" holes.  Sounds like a bit of jealosuy coming from the CD member to refer to any Cypress hole as "average."

It is the most awe inspiring golf course on the planet..period.  

Jordan:

It always cracks me up when golf pros open their mouths without thinking.  To refer to #9 as a "dumb" hole boggles my mind.  I'd like to her his concise reasoning on why he feels this way.

[Rick Shefchik]

I really think this is pretty easy to explain...not having played Crystal Downs, I can at least say that I'm not aware of a particular hole on the course that has been photographed and featured in golf books countless times, like #16 at CPC -- or, for that matter, a stretch of 3 holes at CD that even casual golfers would give almost anything to look at, much less play.

That doesn't make 15, 16 and 17 at CPC any better than any three great holes at CD, just more famous -- and by extension, it would be natural to assume that the other 15 holes at CPC are somehow lesser, whereas there isn't such a perceived gap between the best or three best holes at CD, and the rest of the course.

In my opinion, you can't find seven non-great holes at Cypress Point. If you played it for the first time and found three holes that weren't quite as great as you expected them to be, I'm pretty sure you'd find at least three or four that were way better than you expected them to be. They just can't all be #16.  

[George Pazin]

Can't really add anything, other than this link for JC:

Geoff's Book on Cypress Point

Best book on any specific golf course I've seen, though I'm not as widely read as many on here. Well worth the money.

[C. Squier]

Can't really add anything, other than this link for JC:

Geoff's Book on Cypress Point

Best book on any specific golf course I've seen, though I'm not as widely read as many on here. Well worth the money.

Just got the book myself, very worthwhile read.  I think I'll wear it out like I did the old Sears Wishbooks at Christmas time when I was a kid.  If you dream about it enough, you might just get that Nintendo (though I never did    ).

[igrowgrass]

The member I played with at CD suggested that although Cypress Point had some spectacular holes, he also felt it had 6 or 7 "average" holes that get a free pass because of the fact that its Cypress Point.  

The average holes at CP he is referring too, are they average at CP or average for courses around the world?
Not every hole at every great course be spectacular, can it?

[Joel_Stewart]

Not every hole at every great course be spectacular, can it?

Could be a discussion for another thread.  Maybe Pine Valley, possibly Shinnecock.

[JC Jones]

The member I played with at CD suggested that although Cypress Point had some spectacular holes, he also felt it had 6 or 7 "average" holes that get a free pass because of the fact that its Cypress Point.  

The average holes at CP he is referring too, are they average at CP or average for courses around the world?
Not every hole at every great course be spectacular, can it?

average for that caliber course.  Im not sure which ones he was talking about, he didnt elaborate and I dont want to speculate for him.  Again, the point of the question was not to discount CP but rather to inquire as to which holes he could potentially be talking about.

[Ken Fry]

Jordan:

It always cracks me up when golf pros open their mouths without thinking.  To refer to #9 as a "dumb" hole boggles my mind.  I'd like to her his concise reasoning on why he feels this way.

Mike,

Why is the fact he's a golf pro have anything to do with forming an opinion on, well, golf??

I've heard my share of doctors pontificate on the finer points of golf course architecture who don't know their ass from their elbow.  They're smart.  They're doctors.  So all doctors will fit this mold?

The fact of the matter is I've had phenominal conversations with many doctors who are well traveled and educated in gca.  Along with bankers, truck drivers, accountants, insurance salesmen and (God help me) even lawyers.

Anyone can stick their foot in their mouths if given the opportunity.

Ken

[ed_getka]

JC,
   There are many things that can be debated about these 2 courses, but the CD member claiming there are 6-7 average holes at CPC is hyperbole in the extreme.

  I will agree with Joel on #3 and #10 as those are the holes I always felt were the weaker sisters on the course. Most courses would be delighted to have either of these holes. #3 was more impressive this last go round a couple of weeks ago, which I attribute to the bunker work over the last few years. None of these holes is bad. #18 gets knocked but I don't think I have ever parred it so it can't be all that bad. It is certainly a let down after the stretch of #12-17, but almost any hole is going to pale in comparison to the crescendo of a finish up to #17.
     The weak holes at CD IMHO are #10 and #16. Again, this is in comparison to its other 16 brethren. Most courses would be happy to have these holes. #17 is controversial as pointed out, but I like the hole. Not so much the tee shot, but that approach to a skyline green that just gets harder and harder to hit over time as it gets in your head. #16 is essentially a crescent shaped par 5 with nothing going on until you get to that excellent green. #10 is a straightaway par 4 from an elevated tee and there is nothing going on UNTIL the approach into that excellent green. See a pattern developing here?
    CD and Prairie Dunes are courses with outstanding greens that get in your head before you even get to them, because you know if the approach isn't good then a 3 putt is very likely, which then puts pressure on the tee shot to give you a better approach shot, etc...
    Being below the hole is imperative at CD, and still pretty darn important at CPC.
    There are so many attributes to these 2 great courses that any negatives are simply nitpicking, because there are NO bad holes on these two courses.
    Both of these courses deserve their lofty rankings and in the end Cypress just happens to have that water feature that people seem to be impressed by.
    I could go on about these two courses for hours, but man must sleep at some point.

[JC Jones]

Thanks for your post Ed, that was precisely what I was looking for when I posed the question.

This was the discussion I was looking for but apparently a discussion about the merits of Cypress Point and how there may be a course that could even be discussed in the same breath is not allowed on this board.

I agree that when I stood on 10, 12 and 16 tee I didnt have a great impression, however, that soon changed when I hit my approach shot to the green.  and my subsequent chip shot....

[Andy Troeger]

Ed,
Interesting that you say that as I think #10 is pretty darn good in its own right. The approach is tough and interesting as you already mentioned, but I found out the hard way just how important it is to keep the tee shot to the right side of the fairway to give yourself an angle to the green. Anything left there becomes pretty tough.

So as you say, if #10 can be described as one of the weakest holes on the golf course then that speaks to the greatness of CD.

I've actually heard more complaints/comments about 11 in that regard from people who think the green is too severe at today's green speeds. I tried hitting putts from different spots on that green and its certainly close. Thankfully my approach ended up about 3 feet under the hole for a birdie, but I needed it since I had 12 putts through 4 holes on the front!  

[JC Jones]

11 is pretty severe, although, if played correctly you can mitigate the speed.  

When I played it on Sunday the pin was middle/right and back.  I flew my shot 6 feet right and 5 feet past the hole.  Some how it stayed there.  Anyways, the putt was severely downhill and fast.  I played out 5 feet right of the hole and killed it in the hill.  It then trickled down to the cup.  

I had to do that on a couple holes where I thought it would be too quick to play less break.

[ed_getka]

Andy,
   I'm just providing a perspective on #10, I certainly don't expect everyone to agree.
   After my first time around CD I didn't get what all the fuss about #8 was. After a dozen or so playings of #8 I now know (I knew by the 3rd time). As I said these aren't really criticisms so much as nitpicking which is about all you can do at that level of course.

[Tom Huckaby]

This was the discussion I was looking for but apparently a discussion about the merits of Cypress Point and how there may be a course that could even be discussed in the same breath is not allowed on this board.

JC:  lighten up.  For the most part the discussion you seek is wholly encouraged here.  The problem is the universe of people who have played both of these courses is very small... and the bigger problem is that you started things out with a pretty bold statement which can certainly seen as an attack on a course many of us love.  So if we defended it, well... you have to expect that.  But give it a rest with the "this discussion isn't allowed" stuff, will ya?

TH

[JC Jones]

This was the discussion I was looking for but apparently a discussion about the merits of Cypress Point and how there may be a course that could even be discussed in the same breath is not allowed on this board.

JC:  lighten up.  For the most part the discussion you seek is wholly encouraged here.  The problem is the universe of people who have played both of these courses is very small... and the bigger problem is that you started things out with a pretty bold statement which can certainly seen as an attack on a course many of us love.  So if we defended it, well... you have to expect that.  But give it a rest with the "this discussion isn't allowed" stuff, will ya?

TH

The statement wasnt mine and I never owned it.  I was seeking insight from those who had played CP to figure out a) whether or not it was true and b) if so, which holes.

The course doesnt need defending, that is obvious.  I was looking to see if anyone could lend insight as to what this particular member was talking about as I was just as taken back as you were.

I was looking for someone like you who has played CP to discuss its architecture and whether any holes were "weaker sisters" as Ed pointed out, especially the holes away from the water that I am assuming he was talking about.

Next time I'd prefer you discuss the architecture and keep the pithy comments to yourself.

[Tom Huckaby]

JC:

Well, next time hopefully you will understand you can't just come in shooting from the hip and expect zero response.  As for pithy comments, I wasn't aware I had made any - but thanks!  I do enjoy those.  

Look, no need for us to battle.  Like I say, I enjoy these discussions, for sure.

So whaddya say we bury the hatchet.  I'll get off your case, you quit saying things like these comparisons are forbidden on this board.

Deal?

As for discussing the architecture, I believe I stated several times that I don't find any weak sister holes at CP.  I also commented on Joel's listing of holes that he considers such.  I'm not sure what more you want.

But in the spirit of good discussion....

I truly don't find any weak holes at CP, not in the overall context of golf courses.  But yes, if I had to pick one that is lesser than others on that course, it would be #10 - it's a pretty straightforward shortish par 5.  But the point is even that hole has its merits:  very cool raised tee shot from the side of an enormous sand dune (not something one sees every day); strategic choice involving large right side fairway bunker - do we tempt it or not?  Can we blow over it?  Then a very cool green, as Ed says.

Hopefully that helps.  Can we consider the hatchet buried?

TH

[Bob_Huntley]

This was the discussion I was looking for but apparently a discussion about the merits of Cypress Point and how there may be a course that could even be discussed in the same breath is not allowed on this board.

JC:  lighten up.  For the most part the discussion you seek is wholly encouraged here.  The problem is the universe of people who have played both of these courses is very small... and the bigger problem is that you started things out with a pretty bold statement which can certainly seen as an attack on a course many of us love.  So if we defended it, well... you have to expect that.  But give it a rest with the "this discussion isn't allowed" stuff, will ya?

TH

Next time I'd prefer you discuss the architecture and keep the pithy comments to yourself.

This is beginning to sound like some vinegary spinsters discussion group at the Temperance Society. This whole Discussion Group is rife with "Pithy Comment", sometimes the best part of the posts.

Bob

[Tom Huckaby]

Well Bob, I am rather with you on that... this site would be darn boring sans pithy comments.

I just sincerely wasn't aware I had made any on this thread... I guess it's a sign of true pithiness when one is pithy without trying.

 

[Michael Dugger]

Like Tom Doak mentioned in his "Guide," no study of golf course architecture is complete without an examination of Crystal Downs.

But who here wants to make the claim the land where Crystal Downs resides is as stunning, thrilling (insert own adjective here) as that of Cypress Point?

It's not.  No ocean.  No cliffs.  No vast areas of exposed sand.  I propose the even the vegetation and trees at Cypress best that of Crystal.

Now, to a guy like me, this kinda thing matters.  I happen to consider golf in jaw dropping environments the apex of the artform.

On a hole by hole basis, Crystal probably stacks up to Cypress "pound for pound," but you cannot discount the setting.

One of the glorious things about Cypress is the quality of the architecture matches the quality of the property.

At Crystal, one could probably say the quality of the architecture surpasses the property.

[David Stamm]

I haven't played either, but this seems to be a case of which Chateau produces the best wine from the Bourdeaux region. They both have their subtleties and nuances and one can't go wrong in citing the virtues of either. When one starts straining at gnats, that's where things can get personal, which in a way is what this site is about. However, I find that there there isn't a course that can have all 18 holes appeal to all of our senses. As my friend Jon Spaulding will always point out to me, if they were all great, how would we know what IS great. I also find that there are alot of courses more worthy of pointing out deficiencies in then masterpieces such as these. The golf world has certainly provided plenty to talk about in that regard. Every course should be talked about from every angle and nothing should be excluded from criticism, but I don't see the point in trying to decide which is better. Enjoy them for what they are.

[ed_getka]

Michael,
    I am not going to say that CD is a better setting than CPC, but you obviously haven't been to CD because the setting of the front nine is one of the best in golf. Standing on the 1st tee with the downs spread out before you and Crystal Lake and Lake Michigan off in the distance is unforgettable.
   As for the trees, you are off the mark there too. Other than the wondrous cluster of cypress trees on #14 at CPC, the tree situation is superior at CD. The selective use of specimen trees on the front nine at CD to dictate strategy and add to the aesthetic experience is superlative, IMHO of course.

[Rick Shefchik]

I truly don't find any weak holes at CP, not in the overall context of golf courses.  But yes, if I had to pick one that is lesser than others on that course, it would be #10 - it's a pretty straightforward shortish par 5.  But the point is even that hole has its merits:  very cool raised tee shot from the side of an enormous sand dune (not something one sees every day); strategic choice involving large right side fairway bunker - do we tempt it or not?  Can we blow over it?  Then a very cool green, as Ed says.

Huck,

Let me point out another great feature of #10, a hole I like more and more as I think about it. It's just long enough that guys like you and me feel we can take a shot at reaching in two, but probably won't, leaving a really tough choice for a third shot. The slightly raised green will receive a bump-and-run, but it's got to be executed flawlessly, or you might not be putting; same with a standard lob -- you can do it, but get it above the hole and you've got some serious work on your hands.

[Tom Huckaby]

Rick:

Right on, brother and great point!  That was proven in our recent round... both you and I were left with pretty darn tough pitch shots, tougher than they should have been, each inside 50 yards.

The bunkers up by the green do complicate the go/no-go decision also....

So all in all, #10 is a darn good golf hole.

Which is kind of my point (and Ed's, I think).  If this is the "worst" hole on the course, it's a strong testament to the course's greatness.

TH

[David Stamm]

Which is kind of my point (and Ed's, I think).  If this is the "worst" hole on the course, it's a strong testament to the course's greatness.

TH

Which is kind of like saying that a team is only as good as it's weakest link. If that hole is a weak link, no pun intended, then it's a testament to how good the course is as a whole.

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