[paul cowley]

Paul,

I don't believe you can design quirk - you can only choose to keep something quirky as part of the design.

Ian....I'm not so sure again.
I have designed a lot of what some might consider visually quirky designs.....ruins, walls, forts etc....some so large that they create the landform that 3 or 4 holes play upon.....and though their presence might be considered decorative by some, I can assure you that the main features of the hardscape elements involved were definitely not just decorative....but always in play and part of the strategy.

But these elements are probably in the same category as Dye's Ties, and don't possess an essence of something I want to create on occasion, but that defies a formula or plan....something  you will know when you see it.


Thanks JM for the Mohonk photos and info....for those of you havev't been in that area of the Hudson Valley, its a treat.

 

[Jay Flemma]

Paul:

Where have you seen good MODERN quirk?

I think quirk is something that has to pass the test of time.

Lederach, Tobacco Road, Black Mesa, Ballyneal, Friar's Head, Bayonne...

[Anthony_Nysse]

#10 at Friar's Head may be the best, recent example of a modern course with a quirk. Thank goodness the Bill and Ben decided to keeping this huges, 18 foot, natural mound that blocks out the left side of the green-VERY cool!

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Jay Flemma]

OK.....maybe we ought to try to design one of these quirks together.

Every hole design needs to start with a good storyline....so let me see.....I'm thinking of really good well drained soil that is almost like greens mix when tested....the holes terrain is what most would consider flat, although it does slope left to right at a slow draining percentage of around 3%.......jump in here.

I vote for a center line bunker. And severe green contours.

[paul cowley]

OK.....maybe we ought to try to design one of these quirks together.

Every hole design needs to start with a good storyline....so let me see.....I'm thinking of really good well drained soil that is almost like greens mix when tested....the holes terrain is what most would consider flat, although it does slope left to right at a slow draining percentage of around 3%.......jump in here.

I vote for a center line bunker. And severe green contours.

Jay....we have that and more at the as yet unopened 'Ricefields' [Savannah]....Forrests latent involvement that he says would meet with Mikes approval.....just waiting on you to come on down.

[Mike_Cirba]

JMorgan,

Are we long lost brothers?   We seem to be interested in the exact same "pre-Golden-Age" architecture, architects, and courses!   Great pics of Mohonk!  

Now, you just have to come here and hunt down the Ozone Club and Samuel Allen stuff with me around Philly.  

Jay,

Some good examples in your bunch.  

Of them, though, I think Lederach most clearly and purposefully tries to be quirky and succeeds.   That's very rare.

Paul C;

While your compiling thoughts on quirk, I'd offer this one...

Quirk is finding what you least expect to find where you least expect to find it.

I want dibs and credit for that original quote when you put together your Annual Poor Cowley's Quirkmanac.    

[Ian Andrew]

Paul:

Where have you seen good MODERN quirk?

I think quirk is something that has to pass the test of time.

Lederach, Tobacco Road, Black Mesa, Ballyneal, Friar's Head, Bayonne...

Jay,

I don't think that Tobacco Road is quirky. Bold, in your face, dramatic, a different style of architecture - hell yes - quirky, no.

Friar's Head - what's quirky - the dune on #10?

[Phil McDade]

Paul:

Where have you seen good MODERN quirk?

I think quirk is something that has to pass the test of time.

Tom:

What about Dye's triple option short par 4 (forgot the #) at the River Course at Blackwolf Run in Kohler? It's the one with the big trees in the middle of the aiming point, with the river to the right and fairway left, and green to the right of the trees. Options are: fairly simple iron/fairway wood left, then short iron into the green; fly the trees for a simple pitch-and-run into the green; go right of the trees and carry all the way to the green, risking a slightly faded fade that ends up in the drink.

Not my exact definition of quirk, but I know of few modern holes designed with such multiple options.

[paul cowley]

Modern quirk hmmmmm.....conceptually at least, how about a compact site where you need a shorter to connection hole...the site has a gently falling side slope that flattens out about 280 to 340 yards from the back tee, as the landing area is slanted right to left on a diagonal. There is trouble short of this preferred landing area, but there is a shorter fairway that starts out to the extreme right and swings in to connect with the fairway and the preferred fairway area.

The green is on a slightly shelved out site that sits on the left side slope and is about 260 yds from the tee and faces the landing area, which is 40 to 80 yds away to the right. The green surface also faces the landing area and slopes in that same direction at a an average of 2.5%.

Essentially there is no way that a tee shot would be able to hold on the green surface [well maybe 1 out of 100], and most shots will go beyond the green, forcing a second shot of various lengths back up to the green.

The hole for most purposes plays in reverse...or probably more like a reverse 150 degree dogleg.

It could be of the bunker less variety or not. ...and have all sorts of little moguls and contours or not.

I'm also not sure how you would count the yardage for the card....but I am sure I could make this hole work and it be enjoyable to play, especially where room is limited and it would be nice to see something beyond just another par three in its place. I actually have a site in mind on a potential a short course in Costa Rica.

Now if I built this hole in the future, I'm pretty sure it would be considered Modern Quirky.....and I have a bunch more where this came from, in all shapes and sizes..

My bigger dilemma is taking the chance with a clients money and property to use them.

They would have to be an improvement over what's typical to justify their inclusion.

 

[paul cowley]

Paul....after looking back over this thread, the site from pictures that James posted earlier seems to be a good candidate for the type of hole you propose.....JMO.

[paul cowley]

Paul....after looking back over this thread, the site from pictures that James posted earlier seems to be a good candidate for the type of hole you propose.....IMO.

....and a good one at that!

[paul cowley]

"I want dibs and credit for that original quote when you put together your Annual Poor Cowley's Quirkmanac."

Consider it done my friend....do you want to sign up now for a copy from our first scheduled press run of 10?      

[Tom_Doak]

To respond to the questions I've been asked:

I've designed a lot of wild greens in my day.  If that's your definition of quirky, then yes, I think there can be good modern quirk.  I guess there are some greens I'd call quirky, but not many.

That short par-4 at Blackwolf Run is quirky ... most any hole with trees hanging over the line of play would qualify by my count.  Personally, I wouldn't put that one in the "good" category, but I guess others do.  There are three options on that hole, but none of them are very good ones.

Paul:  Your proposed hole would certainly count as quirky.  I'd have to play it to decide if it was good; I've seen par fives where you want to play past the green in two, but never a par four.  If you build it, I will come.

[Willie_Dow]

Pete Dye's course at Vero Beach, The Moorings, is the greatest collection of quirky holes I have ever seen, or played.

[TEPaul]

When I think of quirk for some reason Misquamicut always comes to mind. But I wouldn't call that designed quirk exactly. It's just the interesting use for golf of some very different landforms on 3-4 holes.

[Adam Clayman]

As Tom Paul's post implies, quirk should be inherent in the site specific. Designing it in on purpose seems like a more risky proposition.

Not that it couldn't be done, but how do you justify afterwards if it doesn't work?

The example that comes to my mind is the first at Black Mesa. Baxter and the boys gambled, knew it was a risk, and in the end won. No one died and the result is a controversial opener with a natural ridge still in the place where the gods left it. The fact that it introduces these ridges, used elsewhere in the design, doesn't hurt either.
 

[paul cowley]

"Not that it couldn't be done, but how do you justify afterwards if it doesn't work?"

Adam.....because in this business I consider it a true risk reward hole....if it works you might get more business, if it doesn't work often enough, you risk not getting the opportunity to try similar things in the future.

Which brings me back to my point in this thread....how do you create new quirk out of sites that don't offer much, sites where you have to create almost all of the interest to begin with? Something that is not all that uncommon in this business. The Barefoot course that was previously mentioned had maybe 8' of contour change over the entire site that was also eaten up with wetlands and so low that we had to dig numerous lagoons just to bring the fairways up high enough so we could begin to drain them....coupled with the fact that the site had been recently raped...errr timbered, and they left a whopping 5 to 10 trees per acre as part of their 'residential cut'.

Sometimes in ones career you don't have the benefit of time to allow for quirk....or have a good enough site where it occurs naturally.

Of late TomD is getting some really good sites, and I am jealous and full of admiration.....but he has earned his good sites the hard way....by taking one bad site at a time and making it something better than most of his competition could.

That and a shrewd knack for self promotion and an ability to put himself in the right place at the right time

He is going to make one of the best ASGCA presidents ever, and you heard it here first.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Pete Dye's course at Vero Beach, The Moorings, is the greatest collection of quirky holes I have ever seen, or played.

C'mon, tell us more! I tried to get some pics off their website, but all I could get was that it's 4,300 yards and par 64.

Paul C, that par 4 sounds really interesting.  The quirk is that it violates a sacred cow.  It's like it breaks an implicit rule.  It's likely to be upsetting on some level to many golfers -- excellent!

But I imagine it would have to come at the appropriate spot in the round.  It will be a pace wrecker, won't it?

Mark

[paul cowley]

Mark....it would play similar to a short four where most everyone has a go at it.....definitely not a hole for a course that needs to get masses of people thru the gates.

[Willie_Dow]

Mark - That Moorings course is so memorable that you can play it in your mind and have a fun round of golf.  For example you start out with a three wood shot to the first green, a par 3.  Drainage ditches all over the place, and waste bunkers that force you to keep the ball toward those ditches.  The sixth hole is a 55 yarder to a green that slopes from back to front so severely that if you're behind the hole you can putt off the green.  The Indian River surrounds the first nine peninsular and the eighth and nineth are long par threes over water, with a bailout over palmettos to the right.

The back nine is full of ponds and sand wastelands, and some builtup mounding.  A fun walk with a push cart, and use of a number of clubs for a variety of shots along A1A.  I understand Pete wanted the 10th to have water in front of the green, which was turned down to speed up play, but it would have been a very demanding second shot to a small flat raised up green.

Watch out for the crocks !

[Adam Clayman]

Paul, I feel your pain. At least I sense your desire to want to create great golfing ground. Tom's Lubbock course came immediately to mind, as did a hole like Quaker Ridge's 9th. How much elevation does TOC have?

 As for Tom being President of that Org, I'm experienced enough to recognize your sense of humor. But just in case you droping a big bomb on us, I'll play along. I agree he'd be the bomb.

[Adam_F_Collins]

Hi Paul,

I wonder if 'quirk' is something that is designed, or more a reflection of the character or characters behind the design...

It doesn't seem to me to be something that can be chosen or not chosen the same way other things can be. In some ways, it may just be the result of a good sense of humor.

Can that be consciously designed?

It's a good question.

[paul cowley]

Hi Paul,

I wonder if 'quirk' is something that is designed, or more a reflection of the character or characters behind the design...

It doesn't seem to me to be something that can be chosen or not chosen the same way other things can be. In some ways, it may just be the result of a good sense of humor.

Can that be consciously designed?

It's a good question.

Adam.....now if you asked my group about me and humour, you would get this... . They would flunk me in the humour/design category, and pass me as a character.

Nonetheless, I think you are probably correct about design and quirk.....and I think it might also take a good sense of humour to appreciate quirk.....and quirk probably just pisses  off those who don't have one.

I need to think more on your thought.

...but in the meantime its good to read your words again stranger....welcome home.

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