What would someone do with blow at Dead show?


As to tee selection...it doesn't much matter to me which tees we play...is there a substantial difference in the difference between mens and womens sets at PV and Oakmont?

... I am a short-knocking queer when compared to guys like Shivas.

Aren't we all...

My fourth just turned 1 and the oldest (twins) are not yet 5...you do the math, she's Irish!

My point about tees and distances is that I would guess it's equitable. Standard men's tees at PV are a certain amount shorter and easier than the tips. I would guess that ratio hold true at Oakmont and everywhere else...but that's just a guess.

A question for you gents - does the 'cumulative' effect have anything to do with making this judgement?

What I mean is, take for example Oakmont and PV: by the end of a round you've played 14 other holes besides the Par 3s. Do the holes that come before (either right before or earlier in the round) the Par 3s end up making those Par 3s 'harder', even if just psychologically?

or put another way: does the shot-making variety demanded at PV wear you down for the Par 3s? Does the unremitting toughness of Oakmont do the same? More? Less?

Thanks
P

Peter,

I'd think a steady flow of tough, interesting shots will keep your antenna up and in tune...

Joe,

asked that way, Gib might have a winner in Oakmont (I've not been there) because bogeys would seem to count the same as doubles and triples...

Joe,

I wasn't saying that was the wrong way to do it, just that it might change my answer...

By the way, I set a qualifier earlier in that "hardest" meant most total strokes over a severl round test...

Either way is fine, and I'm not pissing just typing...who could have  apissing match with a guy that says..."then I will be the first to admit the par-3's at PV got more pussy than I got Johnson."?

Of all the course I've played, I give the nod to Pine Valley because they are always hard, no matter what the conditions. I've not played Shinnecock, but when the wind is down Seminole is not nearly (IMO) as difficult.

That Jans sounds like a tough beeotch. I find it interesting that in prof majors the par 3s typically play hardest relative to par whereas in handicap golf we don't get too many strokes when we play against a competitor like Old Man Par.

Of the courses I've seen, the five par 3s at Grove Park Inn provide the greatest number of strokes between two golfers one level of ability apart.

For example, a five handi playing against scratch will receive a stroke on two par 3s(!) and a nine playing a zero will get strokes on three par 3s.

Here are the holes and their stroke numbers:
2nd  9
7th  5
9th  3
14th 18
17th 10

The 17th illustrates the nature of the 3s. 190 yards, to reach the back tees you climb past a decorative fountain up a goodly amount of steps,your confusion growing as you mount the hill...because you are walking through somebody's garden and up to their house!

And then...you walk around their house to the tee hard against one side. You know Hogan's comment about the 10th(?) at WF West, "a 3 iron into somebody's bedroom?"

Well, this is a 3 iron from somebody's bedroom.

The shot is past the house on the right and a well-leafed tree on the left. The green is benched into a hill side, not particularly hard to putt, but you cannot  miss right.

Guess the raters figured it was equally difficult for the zero and the nine.

(From the up tees, it is a good sight easier at 150 yards.)

And the seventh green has to be seen to be appreciated...

Mark

CAPE KIDNAPPERS!!!!!

3 is a beast, 6 is one of the hardest holes on the planet, 8 is exacting and hard to keep the ball on the green if its blowing, 11 is downright scary from all the way back, and 13 is one of the toughest short 3s in the game.

Here's the view from the middle tee on GPI 17...


...and from the back tee!


Mark

Royal Portrush was mentioned earlier, 6 (Harry Colt's) and 14 (Calamity) are two of the hardest shots you will come across.

I looked at the Unisys Scoring package online for the 2004 US Open at Shinnecock and the 2007 US Open at Oakmont.  Interestingly the par 3's played about the same with Shinnecocks greens slightly harder to hit in regulation than oakmonts (oakmonts 8th was the hardest to hit of any hole at either course but at 288yds it was silly). Here are the stats.

Oakmont                       Shinnecock
        score   %hit                  score     %hit
#6     3.31     42%         #2     3.26       43%
#8     3.45     27%         #7     3.41       33%
#13   3.11     66%         #11    3.33       50%
#16   3.32     50%         #17    3.21       45%

avg   3.298    46.3%               3.303      42.7%

Good stats.  ANGC may have both of them beat, though.  Here is how the par 3's played at last year's Masters:

4   3.4167
6     3.1891
12   3.4006
16   3.3045

Average = 3.328.

I agree that the classic open courses have difficult par 3s, especially in tournament conditions, but I think modern par 3s tend to be more difficult due to the more abundant use of water hazards.  

Take Victoria National for example.  All of the par 3 holes require target golf to a postage stamp green surrounded by trouble.  They are long and difficult under normal playing conditions.  

I challenge you not to look beyond USGA tournament conditions of shin-deep rough and blazing fast greens to analyze the hardest set of par 3s.  Under normal conditions, the player could hit a poor tee shot and still have a reasonable chance to escape with a par.