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Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2007, 09:56:46 PM »
Does anyone know who was the prophet for Sand Hills in that original Golf Magazine article/list? I owe that guy a beer.

I don't know who first mentioned Sand Hills in Golf Magazine -- but my first exposure to the course was on Page 14 of the January 1993 Golf Digest, above Ron Whitten's byline, in "What's ahead for '93":

"Hot items in golf design include Pinehurst-style chipping areas, those greenside swales mown at collar height to encourage chipping and putting as well as pitch shots. Rectangular tee boxes are also popular. So, too, are full-service practice areas surrounded by two or three practice holes.

"Courses to watch include the Merit Club and Royal Melbourne, both in the northern Chicago suburbs; Stonewall outside Philadelphia; The Cliffs at Glassy near Greenville, S.C.; Barrington Hall Golf Club in Macon, Ga.; Old Overton Club in Birmingham; and Sand Hills Club [sic?] in middle-of-nowhere, Neb., where Ben Crenshaw and Bill Coore have routed the most natural links this country will ever encounter."

Below Whitten's little note was a small picture of the property, with only a few stakes here and there. Someone who's been there much more recently than I (sniff) could likely identify the exact spot of the picture.

14 years and 8 months ago, I circled Whitten's article with a blue fountain pen -- and drew a blue fountain-pen arrow pointing to the picture.

It's been downhill ever since!
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

John Kavanaugh

Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2007, 10:08:46 PM »
I have said this before and no one has an explanation.  Why is it if ratings issues sell magazines you can not buy a single issue of Golfweek in a Barnes & Noble or any airport in the country?  Ratings are like Bunnies living in the Mansion...They don't sell magazines but are a great perk for Heff and his buddies.

Here's a simplistic answer from a simple guy:

It'd cost GolfWeek more to distribute that way, in addition to their current distribution, than they would expect to recoup.

That is why my newspaper is not delivered to homes in the city 10 miles to the west. We could sell a whole bunch of papers -- but there would be no return in it.

Apparently the economics of Golf and Golf Digest are different, and they expect to increase their profits via bookstore and newsstand distribution.

I always refuse to renew free subscriptions to trade publications that want to give me magazines I don't read so they can sell ads to people for products that will cost me more money because of those ads.  Giving away a publication to con advertisers out of money that they in turn pass on to consumers should be outlawed.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2007, 10:12:25 PM »
Raters.  What a bunch of philistines. (gosh is feels good to demonize so many based upon the action of so few - the American way!)

Something about a tale, idiot, sound, fury and nothing comes to mind.  

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2007, 10:16:55 PM »
I have said this before and no one has an explanation.  Why is it if ratings issues sell magazines you can not buy a single issue of Golfweek in a Barnes & Noble or any airport in the country?  Ratings are like Bunnies living in the Mansion...They don't sell magazines but are a great perk for Heff and his buddies.

Here's a simplistic answer from a simple guy:

It'd cost GolfWeek more to distribute that way, in addition to their current distribution, than they would expect to recoup.

That is why my newspaper is not delivered to homes in the city 10 miles to the west. We could sell a whole bunch of papers -- but there would be no return in it.

Apparently the economics of Golf and Golf Digest are different, and they expect to increase their profits via bookstore and newsstand distribution.

I always refuse to renew free subscriptions to trade publications that want to give me magazines I don't read so they can sell ads to people for products that will cost me more money because of those ads.  Giving away a publication to con advertisers out of money that they in turn pass on to consumers should be outlawed.

We don't need new laws.

We need smarter advertisers.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2007, 10:21:59 PM »
Why don't the Golf Magazines send out their rating personnel, as do the better wine and dining publications, incognito.

Pay for access and then submit an honest report without the fear of being rebuffed the next time around.

I am sure that if a particular club asked for free advertising in Golfd Digest or Golf Magazine, they would be treated with derision and yet they are requesting a similar freebie.

Bob


Yes. Exactly.

And not just the better food and wine publications, either -- but every daily newspaper I know of (at least here in the States; don't know about foreign practices).

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

John Kavanaugh

Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2007, 10:23:25 PM »
I think the story Mike posted is just another Urban legend that is spread everytime a new course is opened.  The give away was this sentence..."Our host was discussing the transgressions of a panelist from another leading publication."  The intrarater hate between panels leads to many false accusations and unsavory rumors.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2007, 10:25:29 PM »
I think the story Mike posted is just another Urban legend that is spread everytime a new course is opened.  The give away was this sentence..."Our host was discussing the transgressions of a panelist from another leading publication."  The intrarater hate between panels leads to many false accusations and unsavory rumors.

I continue to wonder (you out there, Mike Young?) who wrote that piece he quoted at the top of this thread.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

John Kavanaugh

Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2007, 10:26:17 PM »
Why don't the Golf Magazines send out their rating personnel, as do the better wine and dining publications, incognito.

Pay for access and then submit an honest report without the fear of being rebuffed the next time around.

I am sure that if a particular club asked for free advertising in Golfd Digest or Golf Magazine, they would be treated with derision and yet they are requesting a similar freebie.

Bob


Yes. Exactly.

And not just the better food and wine publications, either -- but every daily newspaper I know of (at least here in the States; don't know about foreign practices).



I don't think when Golf Magazine guys like Nicklaus, Dye and Fazio show up at a course they are treated special because they are raters.  The Golf Mag guys are so connected that they get treated special because of who they are not who they can make you believe you are.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2007, 10:47:48 PM »
I think the story Mike posted is just another Urban legend that is spread everytime a new course is opened.  The give away was this sentence..."Our host was discussing the transgressions of a panelist from another leading publication."  The intrarater hate between panels leads to many false accusations and unsavory rumors.

I continue to wonder (you out there, Mike Young?) who wrote that piece he quoted at the top of this thread.

GOLF CONVERGENCE   www.golfbusinesswire.com/2006_articles/106919   HIS NAME IS JIM KEEGAN

MIKE
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

John Kavanaugh

Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2007, 11:13:34 PM »
I think the story Mike posted is just another Urban legend that is spread everytime a new course is opened.  The give away was this sentence..."Our host was discussing the transgressions of a panelist from another leading publication."  The intrarater hate between panels leads to many false accusations and unsavory rumors.

I continue to wonder (you out there, Mike Young?) who wrote that piece he quoted at the top of this thread.

GOLF CONVERGENCE   www.golfbusinesswire.com/2006_articles/106919   HIS NAME IS JIM KEEGAN

MIKE

I think I might be more inclined to take this guys advice if he were outdoors wearing a hat.  http://www.golfconvergence.com/content/view/39/78/

Can anyone indentify the logo on his shirt?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 11:17:55 PM by John Kavanaugh »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2007, 11:30:39 PM »
For what it is worth, I think Bob Huntley has it exactly right, above...

As to the first publication to draw interest to Sand Hills, well it was naturally Ron Whitten.  He was already acquainted with Mr. Youngscapp, as another native Nebraskan golf guru.

But, the first serious article I saw on Sand Hills was about 1995 in Golf Course Management Magazine, the official pub of the GCSAA.   After reading that article, I found myself coincidentally passing through on a RT to Colorado, and decided to detour north up 83 from North Platte to have a look-see for myself.  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jesse Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2007, 01:08:24 AM »
A course owner a few years back told me he's only had one rater horror story.
And here it is..

A rater calls up on a Thursday asking for a Saturday two-some.
That's bad enough, but then he shows up with four.
About an hour after they tee off, the cart girl asks the F&B director if some guy (the rater) was being "comped" for free beer.
F&B says negative.
At the turn, the rater and his group get sandwiches and beers at the turn. When asked to pay, the rater again says, we're being "comped".
The F&B guy calls the Pro who happens to be sitting next to the owner.
The owner walks to the restaurant and tells the rater fine, you can have your sandwiches but not the beer.
The rater asks why not the beer ?
The owner's response: because you are leaving.


« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 01:10:29 AM by Jesse Jones »

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2007, 08:18:58 AM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh
Can anyone indentify the logo on his shirt?
[quote

That's the old Pebble Beach logo.
Mr Hurricane

Mike_Cirba

Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2007, 08:47:38 AM »
Like Jim Franklin and others have said, I trust that any improper rater behavior would be immediately reported back to the magazines and that appropriate disciplinary action would be taken.




John Kavanaugh

Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2007, 09:10:10 AM »
Like Jim Franklin and others have said, I trust that any improper rater behavior would be immediately reported back to the magazines and that appropriate disciplinary action would be taken.





I think the stories get exaggerated over time but you really can not expect a pro to become a snitch.  I don't think it falls under a serious enough crime that the pro needs to protect other courses from these scoundrels.  Just smile and let the guy go.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2007, 09:12:54 AM »
Like Jim Franklin and others have said, I trust that any improper rater behavior would be immediately reported back to the magazines and that appropriate disciplinary action would be taken.




Mike,

Here is a perfect example.  You Mike said yourself that you weaseled your way onto Merion by bumping a guy in Tommy's group.  Should you have been snitched upon and kicked off the panel.  I say no.  Where does a pro draw the line and doesn't everyone agree that he has better things to do.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2007, 09:21:55 AM »
Why don't the Golf Magazines send out their rating personnel, as do the better wine and dining publications, incognito.

Pay for access and then submit an honest report without the fear of being rebuffed the next time around.

I am sure that if a particular club asked for free advertising in Golfd Digest or Golf Magazine, they would be treated with derision and yet they are requesting a similar freebie.

Bob


At least part of the time us rater phillistines do play incognito; however, when we're playing a public course at which it's tough to get a tee time (or too expensive such that we could use the comp, hey, let's be honest), then we rather have to identify ourselves in order to get the tee time, or the comp.  Then at private clubs, of course if you know no members (which has to often be the case), you also have to identify yourself in order to gain access at all.

In a perfect world each magazine has a corp of paid raters and access to all private clubs, so it can be done as restaurants are...

But the golf and rating world is far from perfect.

TH

John Kavanaugh

Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2007, 09:31:36 AM »
The mags can not pay the raters because this system brings them in zero revenue.  It sells no extra subscriptions or ads.  As a matter of fact if the mags did not have this complicated rating system (like anyone cares if the Golfweek list is compiled by minions or staff) they would likely sell more ads.  Sand Hills might have even bought a page so Sweeney could learn something in media starved New York City.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2007, 09:37:03 AM »
I do not believe that there is a golfer in the world that cares if one of the major mags has 10, 50, 200 or 800 panelists.  A list is a list is a list.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2007, 09:54:26 AM »
There are !@#$%&$s the world over, I don't know why anyone would expect all raters to be saints.

This thread should probably be deleted, it's not serving any real purpose beyond rater-bashing (not that there's anything wrong with that... :)).
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2007, 09:56:53 AM »
Jmorgan, Barney, "is only going to show you this, once."

 :o
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2007, 10:01:07 AM »
We have seen some egregious examples of rater abuse over the course of our association with Pasatiempo.  The rankings are much too important to that club (because they drive both demand and price at a public facility), and the panelists know that and they are trying to take liberties all the time.  Management too often lets them get away with it because they're afraid the guy WON'T be thrown off panelist island and their ranking will suffer as a result.

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2007, 10:14:34 AM »
The mags can not pay the raters because this system brings them in zero revenue.  It sells no extra subscriptions or ads.  As a matter of fact if the mags did not have this complicated rating system (like anyone cares if the Golfweek list is compiled by minions or staff) they would likely sell more ads.  Sand Hills might have even bought a page so Sweeney could learn something in media starved New York City.

John:

    I don't know of any publications in which the owners of Sand Hills purchased ad space.

Do you?

As far as I know, everyone in media sought them out.

Can anyone FOR SURE say otherwise?




« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 06:09:44 PM by Gene Greco »
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

John Kavanaugh

Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #48 on: October 02, 2007, 10:17:48 AM »
The mags can not pay the raters because this system brings them in zero revenue.  It sells no extra subscriptions or ads.  As a matter of fact if the mags did not have this complicated rating system (like anyone cares if the Golfweek list is compiled by minions or staff) they would likely sell more ads.  Sand Hills might have even bought a page so Sweeney could learn something in media starved New York City.

John:

    I don't know of any publications which the owners of Sand Hills purchased ad space in.

Do you?

As far as I know, everyone in media sought them out.

Can anyone FOR SURE say otherwise?






Gene,

I did not mean to say that Sand Hills ever purchased an ad.  I was responding to Mike Sweeney who said he would have never learned of Sand Hills without the rankings.  I think he is wrong.  Of course Sand Hills never needed to purchase an ad because in this very small world of golf, word of mouth will always be enough for the truly great courses in the world.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 10:18:34 AM by John Kavanaugh »

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another panelist story......
« Reply #49 on: October 02, 2007, 10:35:02 AM »
John:


    You are correct - it was word of mouth which propelled membership.

Mr. Youngscap and other owners asked some of their friends to join.
Ben and Bill asked some of their friends as well.
Friends then sponsored friends, etc.

Thank you for clearing up the misunderstanding.

« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 11:34:26 AM by Gene Greco »
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010