Mark

The orientation is (or should be) based on gravity, not sun or any other sort of tranistory thing.  The idea is to keep the water in one place, so flatness is the only criterion.

Rich  "Longtime Runrig Fan" Goodale

Of course.  I guess this should have been obvious to me as I aquaplaned my trolley through the rivers forming in the furrows at Moortown.

By the way, I've got a load of pictures of TAGC and would happily copy them to a CD if anyone would like them.

I was trying to express that the ball kept bouncing higher than my mind must have expected, for I consistently was surprised by bounce. I put this down to the smaller angle of incidence due to the fairway consisting of rigs running perpendicular (or closer to perpendicular than parallel at least) to the vector of the incoming ball and the higher probability of the ball striking a slope facing the golfer than the level ground of a furrow or rig-top or the far-side / transverse slopes.

As to the randomness of bounces similar to a links, that's not at all what I was referencing. That happens, too.  What I was getting at was the way the holes are "framed" into partial blindness off many tees owing to bushes and trees, yes, but also the difficulty of seeing the rigs and furrows (ground-level tees).

All I can say is, the ball bounced higher than I expected (yet continuing roughly on its airborne vector after the first bounce) enough times for me to see a pattern and I haven't felt this sense of disorientation on any other course I've played, linksland included.

I dunno, must be me.

Mark

Mark, sorry I missed you yesterday. Decided to try WH New...

What did everybody see out there that reminded them of other MacKenzie holes / elements on later courses? Did you connect any dots?

The Gibraltar connection to 11 is a good one!

Here's one I saw, maybe I'm connecting dots that don't exist but anyway:

The 5th reminded me of of the 1st at NSW; both play very similarly. Here's a pic of 1 NSW:


Both are short par 4s with rightward-canted fairways, play from peak to peak across valleys, and guard the green via bunkers short and right that play much larger than their outlines; i.e., the surrounding land slopes toward the bunkers.  The challenge on both holes is two-fold: go as far left as you dare, and go as far as you dare.  The punishments for failure are similar.

The interesting thing is to speculate on what Mac took away or learned from designing Alwoodley, how he might have taken an idea from his original course and changed it, perhaps improved it.

In that light, a few differences between the holes:
1 NSW is driveable by a far greater number of golfers and therefore tantalizes the golfer with the very real prospect of great reward.
5 Alwoodley has the advantage of indigenous flora that nominally are "playable" (heather), encouraging the wayward golfer to hit a stupid / heroic second shot, but Mac used bunkers right of 1 NSW fairway to recreate that type of penalty.  (As to left at NSW, I don't believe that forest originally was there but I can't be bothered to check the club history to see what was there.  But one could imagine long grass, scrub or some such other penalty from which the heroic / stupid shot may be attempted.)
By placing the bunkers on 1 NSW harder against the green, and draping the green on and over the precipice of the hill (severe false front), Mac pushed back -- delayed if you will -- the punishment, enabling the golfer to experience the thrill of driving the green, his ball seemingly having run the entire gauntlet of hazards...only to see the ball retreat back into the Maelstrom bunker. (Any Norse fishermen out there to appreciate that?) The emotional resonance of 1 NSW is higher.

I very much enjoyed both holes!

Did anyone notice anything else out there?

Why is Alwoodley a course worth studying, not simply for intrinsic design elements but as a window into the design philosophies and subsequent courses of Alister MacKenzie?

Mark

Mark - The Addington got pretty flooded by 2pm, the morning players got wet but the course was playable, by the time we finished our Board meeting the course was pretty nigh unplayable. Hope you faired better at WH which usually drains better.

The open approaches to the greens at TAGC make the bump and run the ideal shot unless you can put plenty of spin on the ball. By keeping the greens open I guess the doctor was encouraging the links style even in Leeds. Looking at early pictures of ANGC several of the greens were bunkerless possibly allowing different approach options

Mike - I'll have you running the ball in like a local after a couple of trips to the Kent coast. Mind you any more treats of cake and I'll remain unfit to play until the new year!!

It was interesting to me to observe how many of the features at Alwoodley could be replicated on courses in the US if designers so desired. Alwoodley was my first true heathland course and I came away wondering why more courses have not been built like this in the states... particularly in areas with more flattish ground. Surely we could simulate the heather and gorse with local vegitation.

For those who have played Forest Dunes east of Traverse City, there are a handful of holes on the forested side of the course that feature tee shots over heatherish vegetation.  It's a very good, fun course and the highlight to me was not the sandy area but the heathery area.  It reminded me quite a bit of Delamere Forest, Beau Desert and Alwoodley.

For it appears very open from the tee: the flag seems swimming or lost in that ocean of green. Depth perception very difficult; with the flag back on Thursday, I recall that virtually everyone I played with had trouble getting the ball all the way back there.

Mark B - I found the short flagsticks affected my depth perception... they made shots look longer and the greens larger than reality.

Jon,

Yes, I saw patches where what looked like divots were growing as heather.  At dinner on the Thursday the club captain confirmed that this was a problem.

Mark,

I think all the holes were in the same place Wednesday as Thursday.  15 is really wild.  I'm surprised they don't have drainage problems with that hollow but, as you say, with the slope front right it makes for some astonishing putts.  How you would go about putting to a back left pin from a front right position God only knows.

Mark

Perhaps when the green was relaid to USGA spec that factored in the decision to return the feature.

Had we played Alwoodley that Friday we might have had our answer!

Mark

Perhaps it turned into an interesting water hazard internal to the green on Friday?  

 How you would go about putting to a back left pin from a front right position God only knows.

This is why god invented the lob wedge.....