Sean.....Tom pretty much nails it.

Tom....please feel free to ghost write for me anytime. You have the wonderful ability to put things in words that even I can understand.

Philip:

Kingsbarns is certainly a fine and rare example of the completely manufactured course which looks natural.  For myself, there are certain design concepts on it which are so insistent that they give away the hand of man.  But the contouring is good enough and complete enough from one end of the property to the other that it fools nearly everyone ... with the help of a long stretch of natural coastline it can use for a natural tie-in at one side of the course.

There aren't many others in this category.  Shadow Creek looks mostly natural [if you can forget you're surrounded by desert and accept the trees at face value].  But the mother of them all, really, is Pine Valley -- the big contours are natural but all of the "natural wasteland" is shaped.

[quote author=Tom_Doak

Kingsbarns is certainly a fine and rare example of the completely manufactured course which looks natural.  For myself, there are certain design concepts on it which are so insistent that they give away the hand of man.  But the contouring is good enough and complete enough from one end of the property to the other that it fools nearly everyone ... with the help of a long stretch of natural coastline it can use for a natural tie-in at one side of the course.

Tom D,
   I haven't been to Kingsbarns. What are the design concepts that are so insistent that you are referring to?

"Tom P
I am beginning to wonder if it isn't you out to lunch.  Who said that all trees should be ripped out of all courses of the PV era?  Mind you, it isn't bad to see man made shapes (from close or afar - which is what I guess you are talking about where trees are concerned) so long as they look good and fit the overall scheme.  Otherwise, we wouldn't have many courses would we?"

Well Bully for you.

Haven't you noticed those on here who act like trees don't belong on golf courses which was once the old linksman idea?

Have you ever seen PV Sean? If you have I very much doubt you'd suggest that some of the architecture out there have its engineered angles exposed by removing trees and vegetation.

TomD:

From spending an afternoon with Mark Parsinen in NYC one time in which we did nothing but talk architectural concept he seemed to suggest he is virtually fixated on achieveing interesting and attractive backdrops on holes, particularly green sites.

After that he launched into the most interesting treatise about how he was also virtually fixated by trying to develop something that may be termed "truly balanced" optional strategies between short and long players.

To do that really successfully on a golf course hole after hole I would think would be something that could be termed---in the words of Thelma in the movie "Thelma and Louise"--- "some pretty tricky shit."  

Peter:

We do spend a lot of our time on trying to harmonize the golf course with its surroundings.  We do it in a lot of ways:

1.  building hazards into the edge of native vegetation;
2.  seeding a bit of golf grass out into the native and mowing out that way so that the colors and grasses blend out instead of making a stark line;
3.  raising the back edge of a green to hide something man-made behind it so that you don't see anything through the green but a native background (water, trees, native grass, sky, or whatever);
4.  building the same sorts of contours that imitate the site and its surrounds, as Tom Paul described.

One of the most interesting studies we've had was how to make this work on a really flat site -- at Riverfront in Virginia.  We could raise up the greens and hide the edges of our work with bunkers; but we couldn't raise up the back of a fairway bunker and tie it into anything, so it just looked like a pimply mess from far away.  We found we had to build VERY big bunkers with VERY  subtle top lines raised not more than a foot or two above the ground.  

We were surprised to find that we had to do the same thing at Cape Kidnappers -- which is a tilted plane toward the ocean so things stick up in the same way unless you hang them off the edge of one of the ridges, as we did with most of our bunkering there.

[quote author=TEPaul

From spending an afternoon with Mark Parsinen in NYC one time in which we did nothing but talk architectural concept he seemed to suggest he is virtually fixated on achieveing interesting and attractive backdrops on holes, particularly green sites.

Is that for aesthetic reasons a la Fazio or is there some strategic element to having the interesting and attractive backdrops on the holes that he mentioned?

Tom D said "One of the most interesting studies we've had was how to make this work on a really flat site -- at Riverfront in Virginia.  We could raise up the greens and hide the edges of our work with bunkers; but we couldn't raise up the back of a fairway bunker and tie it into anything, so it just looked like a pimply mess from far away".....and that comment made me want to ask....If you felt a hole needed a bunker in a certain spot, but there was no adequate way to tie it in to its surrounds...would you forego it?

My ability to pull this off is quite another issue  

And, man, do you ever have issues....

Paul Cowley said:

"I am not as interested in hiding the hand of man....I am more interested with blending the hand of man with nature to create something that honors both. I try to incorporate things that help reinforce a relationship between the course and the interesting and positive things that exist around it."

Peter Pallotta replied:

"Paul -thanks, that's a very neat and clear way of describing the approach. But those two aspects don't seem to me to be mutually exclusive. I mean, if you're creating the remnants of an old stone wall on a course that mimics an old stone wall the golfer sees on the horizon (i.e. off the course), it can potentially look as natural as everything else, I think.  I don't mean to limit the 'natural' only to that which nature has produced."

Peter:

I think both Paul and I know you don't mean to limit the 'natural' only to that which nature has produced. I think you seem onboard with the idea of using some features on some golf coruses that preceded the golf course (history) even if they were made by man---eg old stone walls, ruins of farm houses, old forts etc.

However, particularly if those kinds of things are actually made with and for the golf course (what could be termed "faux") you need to be pretty careful how you use them and where you put them or even golfers might realize that man ("historically") may never have put them where they are being used for golf.  

In my opinion, people like us always learn a whole lot when we spend time on site with these architects. Mostly you learn about the realities most of us would never suspect of the overall obstacles they're up against for all kinds of reasons.

I've been spending time with Paul on a project in Maryland and we all were considering building what might be termed a "deconstructed wall" around that portion of the property that is bounded by public roads.

But about three hours into trying to explain to the bulldozer operator how to do it to get it to look right and watching him try, the whole idea was shelved because it probably would've taken him about ten times longer to do than what was settled on which was a low earthen wall that looks something like a low Dutch dyke---but it serves the purpose of keeping out car noise and visibility of cars both onto the course and from the course to the road.

So we probably could've done a "desconstructed" stone wall all along those roads taking ten times longer, but you know what----I started thinking---what farmer historically in Cecil County Maryland EVER would've put a stone wall around his property along public roads?

First of all Maryland doesn't have the amount of stone like New England does where old stone walls are pretty prevalent, and furthermore if the old farmer wanted to keep something on his farm in, like horses or cattle, he generally would've just built a post and rail fence along the roads.

Bedford Spring's new restoration just put a post and rail fence in along the public road that borders one side of the property and it looks just great in that "on-site"/"off-site" juxtaposition compared to what was there before which was nothing. Post and rail fences are pretty common out there and in Maryland---at least compared to stone or earthen walls. But I'll promise not to tell anybody if you will promise too.

I think post and rail fences should be more used in golf in regions that historically had them. In any event they do make a pretty good OB boundary for golf and they do look like history in most cases in some regions.  




 

Peter....yes, I feel there is a realistic hope, but much of it depends on the observer or players perception, more so than the designers.

Rich Goodale touches on this over on the "sees" thread, when he talks about designers belonging to two [or three] camps when it comes to naturalism; those who care greatly [CC etc]....those who care less [Raynor etc.]....and those who we really don't know about [MacKenzie]  .

Now me personally, I guess I would belong to the "form follows function, but with a twist" camp, which is really a sub camp of the "those we don't really know about" camp.

I have said in the past that I think the merit of a hole should be judged on how it plays first....and its looks, second.

IE, I would much prefer playing the Road Hole than some Resort Marshmallow with little strategy beyond great views and waves crashing.

....but the real challenge is to integrate the two, and how  this combination is judged depends a lot on  Peter P's acceptance and personal perceptions.....is he, [or we] more likely to favor a hole that might not "look" that good, but plays really well...over a hole that looks great, but doesn't challenge you.

Now just expand this comparison to golf courses......where are you going to play?

[there is no right or wrong answer to this question].

Tom....I probably knew your answer before I asked, just checking.

If a hole "needs" something that badly, and one can't find a way to work it in satisfactorily.....well then that hole probably needs to get another life [or strategic story].